Moving on, a friend posted this link on her FB page. Great article! As with anything, take the good and leave the bad. I don't go around correcting everyone's parenting ideals that aren't in line with my own, (I try not to anyway haha) however when a person decides to lash out I get defensive :) It's in my nature ;p I'm not totally against spanking, but I will defend another mother who is.
In the end, she deleted all her posts. She DID however make a last comment of apology which was quite sincere and Christian of her, but then she immediately deleted that as well so I don't have the last apologetic one. I kind of wondered if her profile had been hacked though because the tone of her last message did not in any way form or fashion match the previous lol.
here we go... (names changed)
Asshat, What does this girl do with Prov 13:24, 22:15, 23:13, 23:14,
29:15? I gotta admit I spank my kids, in public or wherever. Not cause I want
them to be emberassed but because it stops the behavior and because I am the mom
and I know what is best period. I think this chica is wayyy off her rocker and
shes crazy if she thinks spanking is unbiblical, however I do agree that losing
control is unbiblical. That I try not to do period. And as for the mom on that
took her daughter out of the store, good for her that she wasnt scared to
discipline in front of people Im sure if she did it more she wouldn t have to
worry about those incidents. My kids would never scream and tell me no, they
learned that at like age 1!!!!
Yours Truly, wow your kids arn't even verbal and you've already taught them to
be terrified of you? good job mamma ;)
discipline means teach, not spank or punish. the Bible tells us to teach and to
love and be patient. the Bible tells us to be an example of God to our children.
God does not "raise" his children (us) the way most christians consider "godly"
parenting. God uses natural consequences to teach us, He doesn't "spank" us or
punish us every time we disobey. God's relationship with His children is based
on love and trust, not fear and control. parenting out of control only "works"
as long as you are big enough to assert you power. teaching a child to do right
out of fear of punishment does not instill true morals. they obey not because
they have learned to be good but because they have learned not to get caught.
godly parenting is teaching children to WANT to do right out of love, not using
physical force to MAKE them do right for fear of punishment. the same applies to
Christianity. the only true salvation is a choice to serve God out of love for
Him, not fear of hell.
as far as spanking being Biblical, have you ever actually done a bible study on
this subject for yourself? probably not. do a word study on "rod". contrary to
popular belief the rod is not a tool of abuse, but something shepherds used to
GUIDE their sheep. to keep them on the right path, not to hit them with if they
"disobey". the rod is used in the Bible as a source of comfort. Psalm 2:9thy rod
and thy staff they comfort me
the word "beat" would mean spank, not the word "rod". applying the definition of
"spanking" to the word "rod" is twisting and manipulating the scriptures to
justify child abuse. if you REALLY want to know what the Bible teaches you will
go "prove" it for yourself.
Prov 13:24, that verse is about discipline (teaching), chasten (correction)...
neither of those mean spank. use a dictionary before you manipulate scriptures.
Proverbs 22:15 "rod of correction" the Bible defines it's own words, this verse
defines "rod" as correction, not spanking, but "correction", teaching right from
wrong. that doesn't even require punishment of ANY kind.
Prov 29:15 rod- a tool of guidance and comfort (by Biblical definition) and
reproof (verbal correction). again not a single word in this verse about
spanking.
the Bible teaches us to discipline (teach) by guidance and correction. spanking
is not a requirement for raising good healthy Godly children. to my knowledge
the ONLY verse that seems to mention spanking is Proverbs 23:13-14 the first
part, correction. children can be corrected with love. teaching, discipline,
correction... none of those words mean punish or spank. that would be "adding
to" God's word. as to the second part of that verses, first of all, use some
common sense here. if this verse is to be taken literally than the Bible
contains a lie. beating children HAS ended in death. common sense will tell you
this verse does not literally mean beat if you believe that means we are
literally to beat our children, than you have to believe parents are literally
in control their children's eternal fate. if you take part of the verse literal,
you have to take the WHOLE verse literal. so you have to literally believe that
a grown person who was not spanked as a child is damned to "hell" regardless,
and that a person who WAS spanked as a child is going to heaven regardless....
wrong. no human is responsible for another human's salvation. it is just plain
ignorant to assume this verse is meant literal. ...on another note, the word
hell here actually means the grave so basically "beating" saves their life. i
believe in spanking for dangerous situations and as a last measure. if my
toddler is running out in the road, i will spank him. if he learns from the
spanking not to run in the road than i DID literally save his soul(life) from
"hell" (the grave).
so there you go, the Bible does not tell us to spank except it seems, in
instances of life threatening situations. which ironically is the collective
ideal of mother's who follow their God given maternal instinct rather than the
doctrine of man ("Biblical" parenting books).
if you want to use the Bible in a debate, be sure you know what it says first :)
i think most of us who are raised by that philosophy you just posted (myself
included) seem to think that discipline means spanking. that the only parenting
options are spanking or "leaving the child to himself". that is quite frankly
ignorance on our part. i am speaking for myself here and i am still learning as
i go. the IFB uses scare tactics and false accusations that children who are not
spanked are out of control and shooting people and cursing God. that is a load
of bologna. it is unsubstantiated and just plain false. i can name several
adults who were not spanked a single time as children and turned out MUCH better
than half of the spanked and "Biblically" reared people i went to HAC with. if
God promises that if we raise a child in the way he should go he wont' depart
from it, than either God is a liar or modern "christian" parenting (spanking,
asserting control and dominance rather than peace and love) is not "the way he
should go".
Jane, Im not trying to start anything here, but I spank my kids
and they are not terrified of me. I totally believe there is a time where a kid
should be spanked IF NEEDED. Its not something I do on a regular basis, but if i
have tried all other options then believe me its something i will resort to. I
dont go overboard, and I dont feel convicted afterwards. Im not judging anyone,
that isnt my position. So I will leave it at that.
Yours Truly, i am not anti spanking and i agree with you there is a time for
it, but too often Christians tend to WAY overuse and abuse the Bible to
arrogantly justify spanking all the time for everything. it's a bit of a hot
topic with me because of my personal experiences. the Bible as a whole does not
teach the style of parenting endorsed by the IFB that is presented to us as THE
way to raise Godly children. "how to rear children", "babywise", No Greater Joy
ministries... all of those teachings are man's opinion, not scripture. the Bible
is actually quite silent about many parenting topics. spanking as taught in the
previous mentioned sources is not taught in the Bible. when someone calls a
mother who chooses not to spank crazy i tend to ready a rebuttal :) lol. some of
the teachings on spanking in fundamentalism are not Biblical. eg, the above list
of verses. only one of those refers to spanking (beating actually). excerpts
from bro Hyles parenting books and others to spank from infancy, for "atleast
10minutes", until their "will is broken", spanking a child for getting up at
night, for having a potty accident etc. those are man's rules built onto a few
Bible verses. that is a pure and clear example of twisting and manipulating the
scriptures. phrases like "i'd rather go to jail for spanking my kids, than my
kids go to jail because i didn't", really set me off because i personally know
people who use the Bible as an excuse to abuse their children. like i said, it's
a personal issue with me. the reason i posted however is because being raised
IFB, we have heard "spare the rod and spoil the child" 3 times a week since
birth. the false teaching that children will turn out evil if they arn't spanked
as a primary discipline tool is pounded into our brains so that when we have our
own children is it subconscious that we feel guilty or scared they won't turn
out right for not doing the same with even when we know it is all bologna and
scripture twisting. regardless of church or no church though, the word
discipline itself is hugely misunderstood in our culture. hence the
misinterpretation of scripture. "let the word of God be true and every man a
liar"
i think it's important that people understand what the Bible
REALLY says about this subject, as opposed to what we have been taught by MAN
that it says. jmho.
Jane, I am not saying that not spanking your child is wrong
either. Every person has a different parenting style based on each individual
child. Something that works for my two year old might not work on my four year
old. What is wrong is when people take it too far. And believe me I have seen
that just walking through walmart. What made me upset is when you said that
spanking makes your kid terrified of you. Which is totally not the case. I think
this is a hot topic for any mother. No one is going to see eye to eye on this.
We as mothers need to support each other instead of accuse each other (excluding
those who actually do abuse their children).
Yours Truly, i think we agree moreso than disagree lol. when i said
"terrified" i was referring to her comment "My kids would never scream and tell
me no, they learned that at like age 1!!!!".. all those exclamations and the
reference to 24mo old in MY opinion sounds like a prime example of abuse. that's
just my opinion. i'm a little opinionated though.
oops 12mo. my kid is climbing on me
Sally, I agree Jane, for some kids spanking can be beneficial if
done in the proper manner (NOT in public, and with a spirit of love (not
anger)). If a parent must resort to spanking, it should NOT be an episode of
screaming fits an frustration, but rather a controlled connection between the
parent and the child that ends in love and makes the parent/child bond stronger.
The problem is that most times this is not the case. Spanking has become the "
cookie cutter" method of discipline for a lot of parents because "thats how they
were raised". All kids respond differently to different parenting methods, so to
say that spanking is the only option is not fair.
I'm not a perfect parent by any means, I am growing and learning right along
side my kids. I didn't post this article as a personal attack on any one person
or group, my intention was to provoke parents to perhaps explore other means of
guidance and correction for their kids.
Trust me, I know you Ashley, and I think your a great mom, I would never
question your parenting skills because it's obvious your boys adore you and
whatever your doing is working.
I think amber did make a lot of good points in terms of people taking scripture
way out of context. A lot of people just say " well the bible says" when they
really don't know what the bible is really saying. I know all parents out there
only have the best intentions in rearing there children, but so many of them are
painfully misinformed on biblical child rearing and just plain common sense.
Again, not meant to offend anyone, I just want to be the beat mom I can be and I
know all of you feel the same.
Oops, *best mom I can be haha
Asshat, Proverbs 26:4 "Answer Not a Fool according to His folly, lest
thous also be like unto him."
And as far as Bro Hyles. IDK what his book says bc I never read it, I prefer
Cindy and Jack Schaaps "Raising kings and queens" But I am REAL sure he didnt
say what you jkust quoted, however I do own the book so if you have a page and
phrase thatd be great. Bc I dont think its in there. And I tell you what the
Bible has a TON to say about saying bad things about His pastors or the men HE
ordained to preach.!!! Oh now thats another can of worms. Anyway...
Yours Truly, what does the Bible say about saying bad things about pastors?
Asshat, You may wanna start with 2 Kings 23-24, OH wait but you dont
think GOd ever used punishment on children?????
Or 1 Chron 16:20-22, Ps 105:12-15 or .... well ok Ill let you study it out.
(-insert- I did pick apart her references here but that paragraph seems to have disappeared. More scripture twisting and taking way out of context though)
Before theres a rebuttle that will make this any worse than it
is. I guess the proof as to whether I am a abusive mother will be in the
pudding, However I can gurantee you I have never hurt my children, other than
their feelings and They love me and their daddy to death!!! They are beautiful
blessings from God and I am so glad I get to raise them for Him. Praise the Lord
for allowing us the oppertunity, so raise them however you feel best, but why
fight with each other. Maybe our earnest prayer should be that God would allow
us to see that He has a way and if we do it His divine way then we can have
wonderful held together families with children who grow up to be saved and
contributing christians serving Him somwehere someday! Or maybe we should Pray
that our hearts would be right, bc if your biggest worry is spanking you are
closing your eyes to the much bigger things out in this world to get you babies
and ruin their testimonies and their little lives for the Lord.
Yours Truly, before i answer your previous response i want to say that
i do realize i was rude, however, your first response to the original link had
no more charity than my response to you. i hope you see that. before you call
someone way off her rocker and crazy and then proceed to cite verses in effort
to take a stance in an argument, it is important to know for sure what the Bible
teaches on the subject. i should have had a better tone myself, however, i do
not generally stand by and watch while someone is being ridiculed (called crazy)
by a person who is misusing scripture. not trying to be rude, just being honest.
spanking is not so much the issue as is false teaching and misinterpreting God's
Word.
Asshat, I accept your apology.
Maybe someday you can talk to the Lord about how His Word was
written and you didnt like it.
Yours Truly, now then... i never said God didn't punish children. i only said
the verses YOU posted were not about punishment. the word discipline does not
mean punish. punish can be a part of discipline but not the whole of discipline.
i also did not deny spanking can be Biblical. however, it IS a fact that many
scriptures get twisted in the name of child rearing. parenting is a subject that
brings out the claws.
"how to rear children", the chapter on discipline, starting on page 91. let me
insert that i assume his intentions were good, but i do not believe there is any
verse in the Bible that forbids the correcting of scripture manipulation
regardless of who it is by. calling out a error is not "saying bad things" about
the person. i more than appreciate the same for myself if i misrepresent God. i
think the majority of his book, while somewhat shallow and outdated does offer
good general parenting advice..a good bit of it is also terrible heresy and
false teaching. (ex: read the chapter on how to prevent your child from becoming
gay) i haven't read the Schaap's books so i can't comment on them. the pearls
and the ezzos are down right vomitous and ungodly to the extreme. in comparison
to theirs, Hyle's books are quite nice. lastly i would NEVER assume someone is
intentionally misinterpreting the scripture, however, we are COMANDED to
understand the scriptures esp if we are teaching others. we are also called
"equals" in God's family and are to admonish each other. i personally feel it is
our responsibility to speak out and expose false teaching for the sake of those
who are deceived by it. and quite frankly, i love God and i love His word, when
someone slanders God's Word or misuses it, i will not stand idly by twiddling my
thumbs. i will defend God and His truths regardless of who disagrees.
ok for starters, the first page of the chapter is specifically focused on the
product of not spanking. he uses judgmental language and name calling towards
anyone who does not agree with his view (spanking). it is quite clear if you
read over his whole book that he is misunderstanding the word discipline to be
synonymous with spanking. a common misconception that many of us make. he calls
those who spank "Bible believers and wise" and those who don't" Unconverted,
Bible- rejecting, misguided, deceived, swallowed this poison, prophets of
anarchy, followers of this heresy, foolish, disregarding the Word of God".
read his paragraph describing the children who were not spanked. those are false
claims based on nothing more than his opinion. every study ever done actually
proves just the opposite. my own personal experience proves just the opposite.
HIS own personal experience proves just the opposite. (His son?...) these are
scare tactics used to push an agenda. to scare parents into thinking they have
to follow these guidelines or their children will be heathens bound for hell. it
could not be any more obvious.
he then goes on to say that babies lie (sin) by quoting a verse waaaaaaaaaaay
out of context. i cannot even use enough "a's" in there to show how grossly
misused and out of context that verse is. read the chapter for yourself. you'll
see where my quotes came from, spanking from infancy, for 10min or more, until
their will is broken etc etc it goes on and on. i'm sure he truly believes he is
right and has good intentions, but it is still false teaching. very
pharisee-ish. taking one verse and adding a list of man made rules to it and
calling it "Biblical". anyone who has done a true Bible study on these subjects
can see the huge misinterpretation used by IFB preachers and teachers to push
spanking.my heart goes out to sincere and deceived parents and their often
abused children. sadly though, as you have proved, many people do not take the
time to study their Bible but rather get their doctrine from man. that is a
recipe for deception and disaster. and i'm not a Hyle's hater, i'm a false
teaching hater. when a person has such a huge influence over others it is vital
that they be careful what they teach and that it be "above reproach". i don't
pick apart man made doctrine just for fun. the subject of parenting is a big
deal though. i see too many people following bad advice because it is presented
from a pastor as Biblical. there is a host of other unbiblical and very ANTI
biblical advice in his book, but i will stop at this subject.
ps, the Bible calls a fool someone who does not gain understanding and knowledge
from the scripture. i am seeking only to know what the Bible teaches. if every
baptist preacher on the earth disagrees, so be it. i stand on the Word and the
Word alone. the Bible speaks for itself. "let the word of God be true and every
man a liar.".
and maybe someday you can talk to the Lord and eexplain why you
didn't study His word.
Asshat, Oh I dont have to wait to talk to Him I do it on a daily basis
sweetie! Wink wink
And lets just make this over, I mean really, YOu dont know what
your talking about and Im afraid you wont be able to sleep in good consicence if
you dont stop somewhere.
Yours Truly, quite the contraire. the more you talk, the more confident i am
in the scriptures. you have basically done nothing but deny your
misrepresentation of the scriptures, ignore your rude remarks, revert the
conversation away from your own errors, and... well there is no better word for
it than willful ignorance... this was actually quite fun. the more scriptures
you throw out, the more i get to look them up and learn truth. so thank you for
helping me grow :)
Asshat, There is really nothing I can say to make this better. I mean "AS
a dog returneth to his vomit, so a fool returneth to his folly" Prov 26:11 your
just going to keep going back. I mean i aint gonna convinve you and we really
arent helping each other. You are thoroughly convinced you know more BIBLE than
Pastors (Bro Hyles) even though they spent a lifetime studying God's Word. I
mean that alone is enough said...
Oh but I did wanna tell you to look up ROD in the strongs concordance, it says "
a stick for punishing, fighting, writing, ruling, walking it is an authority in
the hands of the ruler..." theres a ton more I aint gonna write tonight, but
since your enjoying learning more I thought that was interesting. That would
kinda shoot your whole theory in the head.
Yours Truly, my theory? my theory is that spanking is Biblical but not to the extreme most
often taken. and not in context with every verse used to support it. and yes i
do love to study. the Bible defines it's own words. rod has quite a few
meanings. more than just the ones you mentioned. it's about context. the even
bigger misconception of "rod", is the misconception of "discipline".
and i doubt i know more scripture than Hyles. he had many more years in it than
i have. that does not make him infallible. any person who is at a place where
they agree 100% with what a preacher says, any preacher, is putting their faith
in man and not God. no human is perfect regardless of how old they are or how
many people that have preached to. ..."enough said" in your response seems to
say you are content to let another human being do your studying for you. the
Bible actually talks quite a bit about getting our doctrine from God rather than
man and proving all things.
btw i could care less if you call me a fool or a dog, but for your own sake, i
would be careful about using the Bible to name call with. that is not what God
gives us the scriptures for and you will have to answer to Him for that one day.
just honest concern.
And she goes on to apologize but immediately deletes it so that bit is lost. The End.
Thanks for posting all of that... it made for interesting reading. I'm the "way off my rocker chica" who wrote the discipline article. :)
ReplyDeletereeeally lol ;p well i loved your article btw.
ReplyDeleteThanks.. it's something I blog about a lot if you're interested in reading more. You can check out my FB page if you'd like :) https://www.facebook.com/thepathlesstakenblog
ReplyDelete