You can never know truth until you're willing to think outside your box, until you dare to go places that make you uncomfortable or even scared, until you risk being ridiculed or cut off by those closest to you, and until you're willing to question EVERYTHING you've believed, not just the details.
Thursday, June 30, 2011
Thursday, June 9, 2011
On Breastfeeding In Church and Modesty
I recently visited a church and on the first occasion, I was sitting in the cry room which was a wonderful set up. They had two rocking chairs behind a glass window so the mothers can sit with their babies and still see the service. It was perfect because I have two littles, a 3yr old and a 1yr old (almost). They are at the age that I can't bring them both in the sanctuary with me, but I don't want to leave them in the nursery with strangers at least until they are comfortable with the workers and I have gotten to know them first. On top of that, the baby has never taken a bottle or paci and refuses both. I've been wanting to go to church so badly and find a good Bible believing church to raise my children in but being on my own with two of that age makes it near impossible. Anyways, so on the first occasion of me visiting, I was able to use the cry room while still witnessing the service. I was sitting in one of the rocking chairs nursing my baby and an older lady came in and said "people can see you" and proceeded to close the blind of the window in my face. I was not terribly offended. As a breastfeeding advocate and a mom who will have been nursing for three years straight come August, I am more than aware that it is a controversial issue. I did mention the situation, but was more than happy to let it go and overlook it. The next time I visited the same church another one of my friends who is also breastfeeding came with me. Both of us were sitting in the cry room nursing and another lady came in to close the blinds on us. This lady was quite rude. To make a long story short, lots of nasty things were said and ignorant things were said. Such as, that breastfeeding is immodest, inappropriate, doesn't belong in church, "haven't you ever heard of a cover?", that "i don't want to see another womans' boob", and even that if I were to continue doing so certain persons would have to leave the church. I am not confrontational so my approach to this type of situation was to write a letter addressed to each of the women involved. From a Christian perspective. Some of the moms in our local breastfeeding coalition wanted to read it, so I thought I would post it here. Breastfeeding in public is too often viewed by "Christians" as immodest or even ungodly. That is completely contradictory to scripture and un-Christ like. I have gone round and round with friends and family for years over this subject, sadly.
Disclaimer: I rarely get to sit here without a child on my lap so having the opportunity to actually type something is near impossible. I generally only have the use of one hand, if that, so I personally find it easier for me to cut and paste from other people's blogs and comments. Most of the following is my own words, but a portion of it is a conglomeration of points others have made that I felt were fitting and could not have said better if I tried. I did this in a hurry so I can't cite each reference, but I can't take credit for 100% of the words here lol.
Here we go:
Hello,
I have visited your church a few times recently with my children and realize now I seem to have been the source of a small bit of drama. First of all, I’d like to apologize for any hard feelings there may have been and thank you for being as kind as you could be about the situation. For future reference, you are all more than welcome to speak openly to me about any issue you may have. I am not easily offended and as far as this subject goes, I promise I have just about heard it all lol. I do feel this needs addressing though in good Christian love. My intent here is not to try and change anyone’s mind or stir up further discord, but merely to share my perspective in hopes that you would have a better understanding of where I am coming from. I am more than happy to agree to disagree on any subject, I only ask that you lend me your ears for a few moments with an open mind and an open heart. Thank you so much for taking the time out of your day to read this!
I think I have a fairly accurate perception here of your view point. Correct me if I am wrong, but the issue you ladies have is one of modesty? Ironically, though you can’t tell now, I felt EXACTLY like you do about a woman nursing in public three years ago. When my first was born I did not leave my house without a cover and avoided most public settings for fear of the necessity to nurse. Even with a cover I was still uncomfortable doing so. Let me give you a quick background on myself if you don’t mind, I was raised in a very extremist religious setting. As far as modesty goes, we had pretty strict dress standards, ie, girls wore dresses only, a-line (no straight skirts), nothing showing the knee, no sleeveless, not even capped sleeves, nothing below the collar bone, at least one slip, one undershirt, and nylons at all times. Boys wore pants, no shorts ever, and collared shirts. I do not follow those same standards now, but my point is that I do understand modesty and I do not have a problem with modesty.
Before I had children, if I saw a woman nursing without a cover I probably would have fainted. I joined a breastfeeding support group a few weeks after my first child was born which obviously would involve sitting in a room with lots of nursing mothers. I think I blushed and averted my eyes every time someone “whipped it out”. I absolutely have been where you are. Every breastfeeding mother in our culture just about goes through the same emotions without exception. Unless she has been predisposed to breastfeeding as normalcy, the first few weeks to months or more are shy and uncomfortable, the longer a woman nurses the more comfortable she becomes with it. I myself went from being a mom who hid at home or in dressing rooms to nurse to ...well you see how I feel about it now :) ... Regardless of any opinion you may have or how educated or well meaning you may be, the fact remains that the only people who are uncomfortable with seeing a woman nurse uncovered are those who have little to no experience with breastfeeding. I am trying my very best to be as eloquent as possible as not to offend, so please do not take me offensively, but I will be honest and hope that you can appreciate that honesty as I would appreciate yours.
What we consider modest is entirely based on cultural conditioning. The Bible does not say or even hint that breastfeeding is immodest or private, quite the opposite actually, but Americans in particular are the ones who have put nursing in the closet. If you just cross the boarder into Mexico you will glimpse a whole lot more breast than I’ve shown you. In some African countries legs are considered the quintessential "no-no part" for women. Villagers can strut around topless, but they're outraged if some tourist shows up wearing shorts. Muslim women are required to cover themselves head to toe because they are responsible for keeping men's thoughts in line. That is why, if a woman is raped, she is the one put to death. In the Middle East, it is a woman's hair, not her breasts, that is considered the most sexual part of her body. A woman flipping or fiddling with her long, loose hair in church would barely be noticed because it's just not a big deal here. If you were to do the same thing at a branch in Jordan, people would think you were trying to seduce someone, definitely not appropriate in church.
Modesty and breastfeeding is really only a Western concept. Our culture is trying to turn something God created to be sacred and beautiful between mother and child into something dirty or private. Something happened in the 50s, 60s and 70s that changed the way we look at breastfeeding. (I know what happened, and so do you, but we'll just leave it at 'there was a cultural shift.'). The majority perspective has been shaped by the status quo of what is socially acceptable moreso than morals. We are not required by the Church to cover up at the beach, and a woman in a bathing suit is showing much more than a breastfeeding mother. Obviously, degrees of modesty are situational, even within the guidelines of the Gospel.
I think a point was made by one or the other of you that it is not the act of breastfeeding that you find immodest, but rather the moment before or after latching on when the breast as a whole is exposed. A woman can be as careful and discreet as she possibly can be, but the fact remains that if there is going to be breastfeeding and if you are looking, odds are you are going to see a glimpse of nip at some point or other. Saying that you have no problem with breastfeeding, but only the seconds between latching is still having a problem with breastfeeding. Either breastfeeding is immodest or it isn’t. Furthermore, I also understand how you may feel about not wanting to see another woman’s breast. Again, if the real issue here is not wanting to see a breast, than the only way to solve that is for you to never leave your house and to promptly dispose of your television and any and all magazines or advertisements in your home.
I am going to try and address a few points here before I close. I apologize for my wordiness. Hopefully this is something we can quickly resolve. "It is not an exaggeration to say that never in any culture or in any time has God's design for women come to be so thoroughly abused and perverted as it is in modern America. It is not easy to show this to women today. The abuse and perversion has become so completely pervasive as to make it seem "normal''. But let me gently try."
1) Breastfeeding is not immodest and it is not sexual. I know I covered this point already, but I’d like to say again, that whether you agree or not, the emotions a person has towards seeing a woman nursing sans cover is purely defined by the culture said person was reared in. Our particular culture happens to be very unsupportive of breastfeeding. The national Breastfeeding rate is around 10%. The chance of witnessing a woman breastfeeding in public in America is extremely rare for the average person, hence it is something we are as whole uncomfortable with. Even if a person has the best intentions and a good heart and claims to be supportive of breastfeeding, we are still generally uncomfortable with the unfamiliar. If everyone breastfed, no one would think anything of it. The heart of the issue is not what is modest but a mistaken identity of why God made breasts. Breasts are not purely sexual, but their primary function is to feed our young. Our society (cultural conditioning again) has taken the function of breasts away and turned them into something purely sexual. That is a perversion of God’s design. "The scriptures often refer respectfully but plainly to the body and its parts. There is no embarrassment and often there is sacred symbolism. It is the world that makes the divinely created body an object of carnal lust. I personally think that getting aroused when a mother breastfeeding is like getting aroused when changing a baby's diaper. It is not sexual in anyway even though the private parts are being exposed." It is the responsibility of parents and leaders to teach the young people and children so as to prevent a society of adults who get squeamish at the sight of breastfeeding.
2) Breastfeeding with a cover only works during infancy and (by God’s own design) children are biologically geared to wean on average between the ages of 3-5. The World Health Organization recommends a minimum of two years, the Surgeon General recommends a minimum of two years, the AAP recommends a minimum of one year with continued nursing as long as both parties involved are happy. The world wide average is between 3-5 yrs. If you don’t already know, America is actually one of the only countries in which weaning at or around 12months is the norm. I could go on, but to get to the point, I have two children, both of which are still in the natural breastfeeding age and both of which are still breastfeeding. Avalon will be turning one July 14th, and Zander will be turning three August 9th. I am practically a single mother with virtually no help. Caring for two children of those ages is unimaginably stressful. It is virtually impossible for me to meet both of their needs all of the time. I am so blessed to have this one parenting tool that allows for the quickest and most effective comfort to stop tantrums or ease an unhappy toddler. That being said, I have used a nursing cover with my first for a few months. Once a baby begins to develop motor skills it is literally impossible to keep them covered while nursing. Not only that, it is hard work for the mum and uncomfortable for both parties. Both of my children are past the age of using a cover. Any person who says “just use a cover, it’s not that hard” has not breastfed past infancy if at all.
On that note, if a mum is breastfeeding without a blanket, someone's going to want her to have a blanket. If she has a blanket, someone's going to want her in the back of the room in a corner. If she's in the back of a room in a corner, someone's going to want her in a different room.... Where do we draw the line? Who here is defining what is or isn’t acceptable? How do you think that makes the mother feel? In the past I have honestly not left my house because I was uncomfortable to breastfeed in public. As a Christian in the church, is it not our duty to make visitors feel welcome rather than uncomfortable and unwelcome for no other reason than that they have a nursling? And lastly, the cry room is a room designed for mother with babies. When you have mothers with babies, you are going to have breastfeeding. If I can’t even nurse in the nursery than how can I bring my children to church?
3) Breastfeeding in the church is God’s will. Rather than basing our ideals on what is socially acceptable or what we personally have been exposed to, we should be asking what do the scriptures have to say? Does God care that we breastfeed? Did he create infant feeding to be done only in privacy? Should Christians be made to feel guilty to nurse? Has the sexual aspect of the breast caused mothers to feel shame to feed their children in the most nurturing way? Where have we come? From the Lady who came up to Jesus in Luke 11:27 and said, " Blessed is the womb that bare thee, and the paps which thou has sucked." to today with "I can’t believe she is breastfeeding here!"? "It would be foolish to urge mothers to breastfeed while simultaneously holding that it is immodest and inappropriate to do so in public. The idea that women should not breastfeed in Church is a part of a larger misunderstanding of women’s bodies and association of women’s breasts purely with male lust. When such anti-Biblical ideas are allowed to continue without refutation an entire segment of family and Christianity really is lost to perversion. The solution is not to ignore or “clean up” tradition, but to rethink our views and bring our lives into conformity with the way that God has designed and intended for mothers to feed their babies. A mother who breastfeeds her child gives a great good to her child through the physical reality of her act. She also offers those who see her a vivid reminder of the goodness of the human body and of God’s astounding love for us." The action which we need to take is to bring ourselves into line with God's plan. My choice to breastfeed and to do so wherever I am regardless of another person’s ideals is honoring God’s plan for my children and my family. My choice to support other younger nursing mothers is also God’s plan. If I honor God by my desire to work within His revealed plan, He will honor me. Our culture has been infiltrated with an enormous amount of misinformation surrounding the subject of breastfeeding. Mothers wean earlier than they plan to, don’t try at all, or are made to feel ashamed of their body’s divine function for no other reason than a lack of knowledge. Hosea 4:6 " His people are destroyed for lack of knowledge."
The Bible teaches that we are "fearfully and wonderfully made'' (Psalm 139:14). Breastfeeding is a sign of God’s great love for us. Isaiah 66:10-14. If you do a Bible study on breastfeeding you will find that a mother’s breast is used to symbolize comfort, nurture, caring, sacrifice, and love. The Bible paints an entirely different picture of breastfeeding than does our society that calls it private and to be covered or hidden. Mothers who breastfeed offer a great gift not only to their children, but also to the Church as a whole through their witness to love. How much more so in a sacred setting? God gave women breasts specifically for the purpose of nursing, so of all places, the church would seem the most appropriate to nurse a child. "It's highly ironic that in a church this would even be a problem, especially since church is very family oriented and breastfeeding is very "family friendly." All 50 U.S. states and its territories allow breastfeeding in public places where a mother is legally allowed. Therefore in a church that sustains and follows the law, no one can tell a mother to stop, they are breaking the law. And breastfeeding is NOT an act of indecency. Many states in their breastfeeding laws state that mothers do not need to conform to the appropriate norms in their places of worship."
"Breastfeeding was created by God's magnificent design for all mammals and he is not silent on the topic of infant feeding. His children can receive more than food from the breast of their mother. What greater gift can a mother give her child than the gift God has given............breastfeeding. The biblical perspective of breastfeeding makes references to show breastfeeding to be a joyful, rewarding blessing to both mother and child. Isaiah 55, the scriptures declare that His ways are higher than our ways, and his thoughts higher than our thoughts. His way to provide infant feeding is from mother to child."
I am spending a lot of time on this point because it is the most important. Here are a just a few of the many scriptures that seemed fitting...
Isaiah 66:10-13
"Rejoice with Jerusalem, and be glad for her, all you who love her; rejoice for joy with her, all you who mourn over her; That ye may nurse and be satisfied from her consoling breasts; that you may drink deeply and be delighted with the abundance and brightness of her glory. For this is what the Lord says: I will extend peace to her like a river, and the wealth of nations like a flooding stream; you will nurse and be carried on her arm and dandled on her knees. As a mother comforts her child, so will I comfort you; and you will be comforted over Jerusalem."
God is depicting Jerusalem as a well loved nursing mother; a mother who provides nourishment and comfort from her breast. He says the people should be delighted with Jerusalem the way a baby enjoys the suckling and sustenance from his mother. God used the word GLORY to symbolize breastmilk! God clearly has an appreciation for mothers who show their love and compassion for their babies through close physical contact that includes breastfeeding, being carried, and play. In order to be Christ-like, this is the attitude we should have when we see a mother breastfeeding especially in church. Our emotions should be one of joy and admiration and delight, not shame and embarrassment.
Numbers 11:12
"Have I conceived all this people? Have I brought them forth, that You should say to me, Carry them in your bosom, as a nursing father carries the sucking child, to the land which You swore to their fathers[ to give them]? "
God implies the importance of the nursing father. Nurse is used in this verse to mean support, faithful, firm, to build up , to give assurance. Husbands need to demonstrate these characteristics to their wives. This would apply to any person who comes in contact with a breastfeeding mother, especially in the church. Not only should we make breastfeeding mothers feel welcome and supported but we are admonished to encourage, promote and prayerfully make breastfeeding a high priority!
Genesis 49:25
"By the God of your father Who will help you, and by the Almighty Who will bless you with blessings of the heavens above, blessings lying in the deep beneath, blessings of the breasts and of the womb."
Breasts are a blessing. Breastfeeding is a blessing. Seeing a mother nursing her child is a blessing, not shameful.
I Samuel 1:21-23
"And Elkanah, and all his house, went up to offer to the Lord the yearly sacrifice, and his vow. But Hannah did not go, for she said to her husband, I will not go until the child is weaned, and then I will bring him, that he may appear before the Lord, and remain there as long as he lives. Elkanah her husband said to her, Do what seems best to you, wait until you have weaned him; only, may the Lord establish His word. So Hannah remained and nursed her son until she weaned him."
Hannah's priority of nursing her child should be an example to all of us. She did not wean him until he was around three to five years of age.This length of time nursing was common during this time. We can reap many benefits today by not thinking of nursing in terms of weeks or months, but instead, nursing for several years. The physical, emotional and spiritual benefits are astounding. From my personal stance, I value the breastfeeding relationship I have with my children in the same way that Hannah likely valued hers. My responsibility as a mother is to make it a priority above the thoughts of any other person around me. I cannot in good conscience allow myself or my children to be bullied or shamed by what may no doubt be a well meaning and loving on looker who may unknowingly or innocently have a perverted view of God’s design.
And lastly but most significant, Joel 2:16
"Gather the people, consecrate the assembly; bring together the elders, gather the children, those nursing at the breast"
Here it is obvious that nursing publicly and in church is in God's will. I whole heartedly support any person’s right to have whatever opinion they so choose, and I am more than happy to agree to disagree, but the church is the house of God and thus the only opinion that should be enforced inside those walls should be the opinion of God, not of ourselves. God’s opinion on breastfeeding is quite clear.
4) What if someone is offended by it? ...my immediate response to that is, which is more important, a new convert visiting a church and unknowingly offending an uncomfortable on-looker by feeding her child in the nursery, or a church member potentially causing a visitor who is looking for a Bible believing church in which to raise her children to feel unwelcome or even shamed and harassed? ....
Aside from that, the problem with this argument is that a mother breastfeeding her child is not doing anything wrong. Breastfeeding is not immodest or sexual or inappropriate. It is beautiful and wonderful and specifically designed by God to be so. If a person has a problem with seeing a baby nursing, the problem is not the mother or baby but the mind set of the onlooker. Everyone is allowed to eat in public.. including children. Breastfeeding is not a sin. Breastfeeding without a cover is not a sin.
It is not my responsibility to control another person’s thoughts, nor theirs mine. If I am offended by something another person does, that is my burden to bear, not theirs. Unless what they are doing is blatantly sinful. "I would never expect anyone to avoid mentioning a certain name or object so as to lift my burdens. The problem is mine. If I choose to allow those things to affect me deeply, that is my problem and no one else's. I can just as easily choose to not allow those things to affect me. I might not be able to stop the germination of a thought, but I can refuse to allow it to flourish. What if there's a closet foot-fetishist running around - should we all avoid wearing flip-flops and high heels in case we "trigger" some kind of impure thoughts? What about pedophiles? Does that mean we shouldn't bring our children around adult men, in case one of those men might have salacious thoughts about them? I see the same thing applying to breastfeeding women in their consideration of others' behaviors and challenges. It is not their burden to bear. It has no correlation to how they treat their fellow men."
And lastly on this point, I am the last person who would intentionally offend another, but when it comes to feeding or comforting my children, they will always come first and rightfully so. I can only hope you understand that.
Lastly,
5) Why I can’t compromise. Since having children, I research everything. I have become quite the activist on certain issues, this being probably the biggest one. I hope after reading this you can understand where I’m coming from. I’m not trying to be rude at all and the LAST thing I would want to do is offend, however, this is an area in which I feel it is my duty as a Christian and as an American citizen to make a difference where I can. That means breastfeeding in public anywhere and everywhere I may be. Again, the ONLY reason people are uncomfortable with seeing breastfeeding is because they aren’t used to it. In cultures where breastfeeding is the norm, no one even looks twice. I think it’s important for the sake of supporting other breastfeeding mothers by helping them feel comfortable nursing, not like they have to hide or stay at home until their children wean, and I think it’s important for children to see and learn what breasts are for. I went to a Christmas party once and proceeded to quietly nurse Avalon when a young pre-teen girl freaked out and went to tell her mom that I was “doing something gross”. She literally had no idea why I had my boob in my child’s face. That, my friend, is a crying shame. I feel it is our responsibility to normalize breastfeeding. We should explain to our children and young adults that breasts are for nurturing our children, not to promote shame or embarrassment. It is our responsibility to teach our children about the divine purpose of our bodies. How many more mothers, babies, and even whole families would receive the blessing of a breastfeeding relationship if our society saw it as the norm?
I also think it's important to talk about nursing in public because "even if every mom had a wonderful lactation consultant, some would still stop breastfeeding earlier than they'd like because of societal pressure. I know this for a fact. Nursing children past 2 years or 1 year or even 6 months is shocking to some people and we need to see it and make it normal so a mom doesn't feel pressured to wean at a time that she doesn't want to. I want all women to be able to reach their breastfeeding goals."
"So why is it important to me? Why can I not hide or use a cover? ...Because I'm hoping to change our culture. And I know I have already changed the culture for many people.... Since when is it wrong to live within cultural norms? ...Since they are oppressive to breastfeeding women and babies and are therefore, wrong. I am silently weeping for the appalling destruction of womanhood and motherhood in our culture and in our churches."
If you made it this far, thank you again for reading. I only hope to have shed some light on this subject for you and give you a better understanding from my personal perspective. I don’t breastfeed in public just because I can, but I do it because it is my God ordained duty to my children, to myself, and to those I come in contact with every day. If you are still uncomfortable or offended I hope that we can agree to disagree with no hard feelings. Like I said earlier, I am not easily offended and I do understand where you ladies are coming from, but for the sake of future visitors and future mothers, it is not in the best interest of your testimony or the testimony of your church to make a visiting mother feel unwelcome for nursing her child. Shaming an act that God created and called beautiful is not for the betterment of the body of Christ and reflects badly on the Christian name as a whole. I want to raise my children in church and in truth, but to be completely honest, in light of recent events, I do not feel welcome at your church. I am saying this only for your benefit. I harbor no ill feelings, but if I do visit again, I will continue to nurse my children without a cover and wherever I may be, in the cry room, the fellowship hall, or the sanctuary. If any of you find that offensive, I am truly sorry that you feel that way and I mean that with the utmost sincerity, but your opinions are your own. They are not my burden to bear and they are not my children’s burden to bear. ...One more thing, I also heard (though this may not be accurate) that one or more of you made the statement that if this (breastfeeding without a cover) was allowed to continue than you would not be able to remain in the church. Again, I am truly heart broken that you feel that way, but the only realistic response to that is to ask the question: How strong of a Christian are you if you would allow my breasts to come between your walk with God? Just something to think about.
I appreciate your taking the time to read this! I hope I haven’t offended, but I did feel this needed addressing. I am enclosing some various bits of literature that you may find informative. I also help moderate the local breastfeeding support group, Beaumont Breastfeeding Coalition, which meets once a month. If this is a subject you would like to learn more about or know someone who is or is about to be nursing a child, you are more than welcome to join us for discussion. If you have any further questions or comments please feel free to address me in person or via phone. Thank you again and God bless!!!
Thank You!
Philippians 4:8
"Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things."
Disclaimer: I rarely get to sit here without a child on my lap so having the opportunity to actually type something is near impossible. I generally only have the use of one hand, if that, so I personally find it easier for me to cut and paste from other people's blogs and comments. Most of the following is my own words, but a portion of it is a conglomeration of points others have made that I felt were fitting and could not have said better if I tried. I did this in a hurry so I can't cite each reference, but I can't take credit for 100% of the words here lol.
Here we go:
Hello,
I have visited your church a few times recently with my children and realize now I seem to have been the source of a small bit of drama. First of all, I’d like to apologize for any hard feelings there may have been and thank you for being as kind as you could be about the situation. For future reference, you are all more than welcome to speak openly to me about any issue you may have. I am not easily offended and as far as this subject goes, I promise I have just about heard it all lol. I do feel this needs addressing though in good Christian love. My intent here is not to try and change anyone’s mind or stir up further discord, but merely to share my perspective in hopes that you would have a better understanding of where I am coming from. I am more than happy to agree to disagree on any subject, I only ask that you lend me your ears for a few moments with an open mind and an open heart. Thank you so much for taking the time out of your day to read this!
I think I have a fairly accurate perception here of your view point. Correct me if I am wrong, but the issue you ladies have is one of modesty? Ironically, though you can’t tell now, I felt EXACTLY like you do about a woman nursing in public three years ago. When my first was born I did not leave my house without a cover and avoided most public settings for fear of the necessity to nurse. Even with a cover I was still uncomfortable doing so. Let me give you a quick background on myself if you don’t mind, I was raised in a very extremist religious setting. As far as modesty goes, we had pretty strict dress standards, ie, girls wore dresses only, a-line (no straight skirts), nothing showing the knee, no sleeveless, not even capped sleeves, nothing below the collar bone, at least one slip, one undershirt, and nylons at all times. Boys wore pants, no shorts ever, and collared shirts. I do not follow those same standards now, but my point is that I do understand modesty and I do not have a problem with modesty.
Before I had children, if I saw a woman nursing without a cover I probably would have fainted. I joined a breastfeeding support group a few weeks after my first child was born which obviously would involve sitting in a room with lots of nursing mothers. I think I blushed and averted my eyes every time someone “whipped it out”. I absolutely have been where you are. Every breastfeeding mother in our culture just about goes through the same emotions without exception. Unless she has been predisposed to breastfeeding as normalcy, the first few weeks to months or more are shy and uncomfortable, the longer a woman nurses the more comfortable she becomes with it. I myself went from being a mom who hid at home or in dressing rooms to nurse to ...well you see how I feel about it now :) ... Regardless of any opinion you may have or how educated or well meaning you may be, the fact remains that the only people who are uncomfortable with seeing a woman nurse uncovered are those who have little to no experience with breastfeeding. I am trying my very best to be as eloquent as possible as not to offend, so please do not take me offensively, but I will be honest and hope that you can appreciate that honesty as I would appreciate yours.
What we consider modest is entirely based on cultural conditioning. The Bible does not say or even hint that breastfeeding is immodest or private, quite the opposite actually, but Americans in particular are the ones who have put nursing in the closet. If you just cross the boarder into Mexico you will glimpse a whole lot more breast than I’ve shown you. In some African countries legs are considered the quintessential "no-no part" for women. Villagers can strut around topless, but they're outraged if some tourist shows up wearing shorts. Muslim women are required to cover themselves head to toe because they are responsible for keeping men's thoughts in line. That is why, if a woman is raped, she is the one put to death. In the Middle East, it is a woman's hair, not her breasts, that is considered the most sexual part of her body. A woman flipping or fiddling with her long, loose hair in church would barely be noticed because it's just not a big deal here. If you were to do the same thing at a branch in Jordan, people would think you were trying to seduce someone, definitely not appropriate in church.
Modesty and breastfeeding is really only a Western concept. Our culture is trying to turn something God created to be sacred and beautiful between mother and child into something dirty or private. Something happened in the 50s, 60s and 70s that changed the way we look at breastfeeding. (I know what happened, and so do you, but we'll just leave it at 'there was a cultural shift.'). The majority perspective has been shaped by the status quo of what is socially acceptable moreso than morals. We are not required by the Church to cover up at the beach, and a woman in a bathing suit is showing much more than a breastfeeding mother. Obviously, degrees of modesty are situational, even within the guidelines of the Gospel.
I think a point was made by one or the other of you that it is not the act of breastfeeding that you find immodest, but rather the moment before or after latching on when the breast as a whole is exposed. A woman can be as careful and discreet as she possibly can be, but the fact remains that if there is going to be breastfeeding and if you are looking, odds are you are going to see a glimpse of nip at some point or other. Saying that you have no problem with breastfeeding, but only the seconds between latching is still having a problem with breastfeeding. Either breastfeeding is immodest or it isn’t. Furthermore, I also understand how you may feel about not wanting to see another woman’s breast. Again, if the real issue here is not wanting to see a breast, than the only way to solve that is for you to never leave your house and to promptly dispose of your television and any and all magazines or advertisements in your home.
I am going to try and address a few points here before I close. I apologize for my wordiness. Hopefully this is something we can quickly resolve. "It is not an exaggeration to say that never in any culture or in any time has God's design for women come to be so thoroughly abused and perverted as it is in modern America. It is not easy to show this to women today. The abuse and perversion has become so completely pervasive as to make it seem "normal''. But let me gently try."
1) Breastfeeding is not immodest and it is not sexual. I know I covered this point already, but I’d like to say again, that whether you agree or not, the emotions a person has towards seeing a woman nursing sans cover is purely defined by the culture said person was reared in. Our particular culture happens to be very unsupportive of breastfeeding. The national Breastfeeding rate is around 10%. The chance of witnessing a woman breastfeeding in public in America is extremely rare for the average person, hence it is something we are as whole uncomfortable with. Even if a person has the best intentions and a good heart and claims to be supportive of breastfeeding, we are still generally uncomfortable with the unfamiliar. If everyone breastfed, no one would think anything of it. The heart of the issue is not what is modest but a mistaken identity of why God made breasts. Breasts are not purely sexual, but their primary function is to feed our young. Our society (cultural conditioning again) has taken the function of breasts away and turned them into something purely sexual. That is a perversion of God’s design. "The scriptures often refer respectfully but plainly to the body and its parts. There is no embarrassment and often there is sacred symbolism. It is the world that makes the divinely created body an object of carnal lust. I personally think that getting aroused when a mother breastfeeding is like getting aroused when changing a baby's diaper. It is not sexual in anyway even though the private parts are being exposed." It is the responsibility of parents and leaders to teach the young people and children so as to prevent a society of adults who get squeamish at the sight of breastfeeding.
2) Breastfeeding with a cover only works during infancy and (by God’s own design) children are biologically geared to wean on average between the ages of 3-5. The World Health Organization recommends a minimum of two years, the Surgeon General recommends a minimum of two years, the AAP recommends a minimum of one year with continued nursing as long as both parties involved are happy. The world wide average is between 3-5 yrs. If you don’t already know, America is actually one of the only countries in which weaning at or around 12months is the norm. I could go on, but to get to the point, I have two children, both of which are still in the natural breastfeeding age and both of which are still breastfeeding. Avalon will be turning one July 14th, and Zander will be turning three August 9th. I am practically a single mother with virtually no help. Caring for two children of those ages is unimaginably stressful. It is virtually impossible for me to meet both of their needs all of the time. I am so blessed to have this one parenting tool that allows for the quickest and most effective comfort to stop tantrums or ease an unhappy toddler. That being said, I have used a nursing cover with my first for a few months. Once a baby begins to develop motor skills it is literally impossible to keep them covered while nursing. Not only that, it is hard work for the mum and uncomfortable for both parties. Both of my children are past the age of using a cover. Any person who says “just use a cover, it’s not that hard” has not breastfed past infancy if at all.
On that note, if a mum is breastfeeding without a blanket, someone's going to want her to have a blanket. If she has a blanket, someone's going to want her in the back of the room in a corner. If she's in the back of a room in a corner, someone's going to want her in a different room.... Where do we draw the line? Who here is defining what is or isn’t acceptable? How do you think that makes the mother feel? In the past I have honestly not left my house because I was uncomfortable to breastfeed in public. As a Christian in the church, is it not our duty to make visitors feel welcome rather than uncomfortable and unwelcome for no other reason than that they have a nursling? And lastly, the cry room is a room designed for mother with babies. When you have mothers with babies, you are going to have breastfeeding. If I can’t even nurse in the nursery than how can I bring my children to church?
3) Breastfeeding in the church is God’s will. Rather than basing our ideals on what is socially acceptable or what we personally have been exposed to, we should be asking what do the scriptures have to say? Does God care that we breastfeed? Did he create infant feeding to be done only in privacy? Should Christians be made to feel guilty to nurse? Has the sexual aspect of the breast caused mothers to feel shame to feed their children in the most nurturing way? Where have we come? From the Lady who came up to Jesus in Luke 11:27 and said, " Blessed is the womb that bare thee, and the paps which thou has sucked." to today with "I can’t believe she is breastfeeding here!"? "It would be foolish to urge mothers to breastfeed while simultaneously holding that it is immodest and inappropriate to do so in public. The idea that women should not breastfeed in Church is a part of a larger misunderstanding of women’s bodies and association of women’s breasts purely with male lust. When such anti-Biblical ideas are allowed to continue without refutation an entire segment of family and Christianity really is lost to perversion. The solution is not to ignore or “clean up” tradition, but to rethink our views and bring our lives into conformity with the way that God has designed and intended for mothers to feed their babies. A mother who breastfeeds her child gives a great good to her child through the physical reality of her act. She also offers those who see her a vivid reminder of the goodness of the human body and of God’s astounding love for us." The action which we need to take is to bring ourselves into line with God's plan. My choice to breastfeed and to do so wherever I am regardless of another person’s ideals is honoring God’s plan for my children and my family. My choice to support other younger nursing mothers is also God’s plan. If I honor God by my desire to work within His revealed plan, He will honor me. Our culture has been infiltrated with an enormous amount of misinformation surrounding the subject of breastfeeding. Mothers wean earlier than they plan to, don’t try at all, or are made to feel ashamed of their body’s divine function for no other reason than a lack of knowledge. Hosea 4:6 " His people are destroyed for lack of knowledge."
The Bible teaches that we are "fearfully and wonderfully made'' (Psalm 139:14). Breastfeeding is a sign of God’s great love for us. Isaiah 66:10-14. If you do a Bible study on breastfeeding you will find that a mother’s breast is used to symbolize comfort, nurture, caring, sacrifice, and love. The Bible paints an entirely different picture of breastfeeding than does our society that calls it private and to be covered or hidden. Mothers who breastfeed offer a great gift not only to their children, but also to the Church as a whole through their witness to love. How much more so in a sacred setting? God gave women breasts specifically for the purpose of nursing, so of all places, the church would seem the most appropriate to nurse a child. "It's highly ironic that in a church this would even be a problem, especially since church is very family oriented and breastfeeding is very "family friendly." All 50 U.S. states and its territories allow breastfeeding in public places where a mother is legally allowed. Therefore in a church that sustains and follows the law, no one can tell a mother to stop, they are breaking the law. And breastfeeding is NOT an act of indecency. Many states in their breastfeeding laws state that mothers do not need to conform to the appropriate norms in their places of worship."
"Breastfeeding was created by God's magnificent design for all mammals and he is not silent on the topic of infant feeding. His children can receive more than food from the breast of their mother. What greater gift can a mother give her child than the gift God has given............breastfeeding. The biblical perspective of breastfeeding makes references to show breastfeeding to be a joyful, rewarding blessing to both mother and child. Isaiah 55, the scriptures declare that His ways are higher than our ways, and his thoughts higher than our thoughts. His way to provide infant feeding is from mother to child."
I am spending a lot of time on this point because it is the most important. Here are a just a few of the many scriptures that seemed fitting...
Isaiah 66:10-13
"Rejoice with Jerusalem, and be glad for her, all you who love her; rejoice for joy with her, all you who mourn over her; That ye may nurse and be satisfied from her consoling breasts; that you may drink deeply and be delighted with the abundance and brightness of her glory. For this is what the Lord says: I will extend peace to her like a river, and the wealth of nations like a flooding stream; you will nurse and be carried on her arm and dandled on her knees. As a mother comforts her child, so will I comfort you; and you will be comforted over Jerusalem."
God is depicting Jerusalem as a well loved nursing mother; a mother who provides nourishment and comfort from her breast. He says the people should be delighted with Jerusalem the way a baby enjoys the suckling and sustenance from his mother. God used the word GLORY to symbolize breastmilk! God clearly has an appreciation for mothers who show their love and compassion for their babies through close physical contact that includes breastfeeding, being carried, and play. In order to be Christ-like, this is the attitude we should have when we see a mother breastfeeding especially in church. Our emotions should be one of joy and admiration and delight, not shame and embarrassment.
Numbers 11:12
"Have I conceived all this people? Have I brought them forth, that You should say to me, Carry them in your bosom, as a nursing father carries the sucking child, to the land which You swore to their fathers[ to give them]? "
God implies the importance of the nursing father. Nurse is used in this verse to mean support, faithful, firm, to build up , to give assurance. Husbands need to demonstrate these characteristics to their wives. This would apply to any person who comes in contact with a breastfeeding mother, especially in the church. Not only should we make breastfeeding mothers feel welcome and supported but we are admonished to encourage, promote and prayerfully make breastfeeding a high priority!
Genesis 49:25
"By the God of your father Who will help you, and by the Almighty Who will bless you with blessings of the heavens above, blessings lying in the deep beneath, blessings of the breasts and of the womb."
Breasts are a blessing. Breastfeeding is a blessing. Seeing a mother nursing her child is a blessing, not shameful.
I Samuel 1:21-23
"And Elkanah, and all his house, went up to offer to the Lord the yearly sacrifice, and his vow. But Hannah did not go, for she said to her husband, I will not go until the child is weaned, and then I will bring him, that he may appear before the Lord, and remain there as long as he lives. Elkanah her husband said to her, Do what seems best to you, wait until you have weaned him; only, may the Lord establish His word. So Hannah remained and nursed her son until she weaned him."
Hannah's priority of nursing her child should be an example to all of us. She did not wean him until he was around three to five years of age.This length of time nursing was common during this time. We can reap many benefits today by not thinking of nursing in terms of weeks or months, but instead, nursing for several years. The physical, emotional and spiritual benefits are astounding. From my personal stance, I value the breastfeeding relationship I have with my children in the same way that Hannah likely valued hers. My responsibility as a mother is to make it a priority above the thoughts of any other person around me. I cannot in good conscience allow myself or my children to be bullied or shamed by what may no doubt be a well meaning and loving on looker who may unknowingly or innocently have a perverted view of God’s design.
And lastly but most significant, Joel 2:16
"Gather the people, consecrate the assembly; bring together the elders, gather the children, those nursing at the breast"
Here it is obvious that nursing publicly and in church is in God's will. I whole heartedly support any person’s right to have whatever opinion they so choose, and I am more than happy to agree to disagree, but the church is the house of God and thus the only opinion that should be enforced inside those walls should be the opinion of God, not of ourselves. God’s opinion on breastfeeding is quite clear.
4) What if someone is offended by it? ...my immediate response to that is, which is more important, a new convert visiting a church and unknowingly offending an uncomfortable on-looker by feeding her child in the nursery, or a church member potentially causing a visitor who is looking for a Bible believing church in which to raise her children to feel unwelcome or even shamed and harassed? ....
Aside from that, the problem with this argument is that a mother breastfeeding her child is not doing anything wrong. Breastfeeding is not immodest or sexual or inappropriate. It is beautiful and wonderful and specifically designed by God to be so. If a person has a problem with seeing a baby nursing, the problem is not the mother or baby but the mind set of the onlooker. Everyone is allowed to eat in public.. including children. Breastfeeding is not a sin. Breastfeeding without a cover is not a sin.
It is not my responsibility to control another person’s thoughts, nor theirs mine. If I am offended by something another person does, that is my burden to bear, not theirs. Unless what they are doing is blatantly sinful. "I would never expect anyone to avoid mentioning a certain name or object so as to lift my burdens. The problem is mine. If I choose to allow those things to affect me deeply, that is my problem and no one else's. I can just as easily choose to not allow those things to affect me. I might not be able to stop the germination of a thought, but I can refuse to allow it to flourish. What if there's a closet foot-fetishist running around - should we all avoid wearing flip-flops and high heels in case we "trigger" some kind of impure thoughts? What about pedophiles? Does that mean we shouldn't bring our children around adult men, in case one of those men might have salacious thoughts about them? I see the same thing applying to breastfeeding women in their consideration of others' behaviors and challenges. It is not their burden to bear. It has no correlation to how they treat their fellow men."
And lastly on this point, I am the last person who would intentionally offend another, but when it comes to feeding or comforting my children, they will always come first and rightfully so. I can only hope you understand that.
Lastly,
5) Why I can’t compromise. Since having children, I research everything. I have become quite the activist on certain issues, this being probably the biggest one. I hope after reading this you can understand where I’m coming from. I’m not trying to be rude at all and the LAST thing I would want to do is offend, however, this is an area in which I feel it is my duty as a Christian and as an American citizen to make a difference where I can. That means breastfeeding in public anywhere and everywhere I may be. Again, the ONLY reason people are uncomfortable with seeing breastfeeding is because they aren’t used to it. In cultures where breastfeeding is the norm, no one even looks twice. I think it’s important for the sake of supporting other breastfeeding mothers by helping them feel comfortable nursing, not like they have to hide or stay at home until their children wean, and I think it’s important for children to see and learn what breasts are for. I went to a Christmas party once and proceeded to quietly nurse Avalon when a young pre-teen girl freaked out and went to tell her mom that I was “doing something gross”. She literally had no idea why I had my boob in my child’s face. That, my friend, is a crying shame. I feel it is our responsibility to normalize breastfeeding. We should explain to our children and young adults that breasts are for nurturing our children, not to promote shame or embarrassment. It is our responsibility to teach our children about the divine purpose of our bodies. How many more mothers, babies, and even whole families would receive the blessing of a breastfeeding relationship if our society saw it as the norm?
I also think it's important to talk about nursing in public because "even if every mom had a wonderful lactation consultant, some would still stop breastfeeding earlier than they'd like because of societal pressure. I know this for a fact. Nursing children past 2 years or 1 year or even 6 months is shocking to some people and we need to see it and make it normal so a mom doesn't feel pressured to wean at a time that she doesn't want to. I want all women to be able to reach their breastfeeding goals."
"So why is it important to me? Why can I not hide or use a cover? ...Because I'm hoping to change our culture. And I know I have already changed the culture for many people.... Since when is it wrong to live within cultural norms? ...Since they are oppressive to breastfeeding women and babies and are therefore, wrong. I am silently weeping for the appalling destruction of womanhood and motherhood in our culture and in our churches."
If you made it this far, thank you again for reading. I only hope to have shed some light on this subject for you and give you a better understanding from my personal perspective. I don’t breastfeed in public just because I can, but I do it because it is my God ordained duty to my children, to myself, and to those I come in contact with every day. If you are still uncomfortable or offended I hope that we can agree to disagree with no hard feelings. Like I said earlier, I am not easily offended and I do understand where you ladies are coming from, but for the sake of future visitors and future mothers, it is not in the best interest of your testimony or the testimony of your church to make a visiting mother feel unwelcome for nursing her child. Shaming an act that God created and called beautiful is not for the betterment of the body of Christ and reflects badly on the Christian name as a whole. I want to raise my children in church and in truth, but to be completely honest, in light of recent events, I do not feel welcome at your church. I am saying this only for your benefit. I harbor no ill feelings, but if I do visit again, I will continue to nurse my children without a cover and wherever I may be, in the cry room, the fellowship hall, or the sanctuary. If any of you find that offensive, I am truly sorry that you feel that way and I mean that with the utmost sincerity, but your opinions are your own. They are not my burden to bear and they are not my children’s burden to bear. ...One more thing, I also heard (though this may not be accurate) that one or more of you made the statement that if this (breastfeeding without a cover) was allowed to continue than you would not be able to remain in the church. Again, I am truly heart broken that you feel that way, but the only realistic response to that is to ask the question: How strong of a Christian are you if you would allow my breasts to come between your walk with God? Just something to think about.
I appreciate your taking the time to read this! I hope I haven’t offended, but I did feel this needed addressing. I am enclosing some various bits of literature that you may find informative. I also help moderate the local breastfeeding support group, Beaumont Breastfeeding Coalition, which meets once a month. If this is a subject you would like to learn more about or know someone who is or is about to be nursing a child, you are more than welcome to join us for discussion. If you have any further questions or comments please feel free to address me in person or via phone. Thank you again and God bless!!!
Thank You!
Philippians 4:8
"Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things."
Friday, April 29, 2011
Was Jesus Really A Hell Fire And Brimstone Preacher?
I have recently been doing quite a bit of Bible study on the subjects of what man is, and what/where/when hell is. I'm still making my way through. I watched a sermon about deception and how to get and remain undecieved. I've alo been reading a lot of verses about "sduying" and "proving all things". God actually COMMANDS us quite often to know what we believe and to know the scriptural basis for it. All that to say, I've been really convicted about studying the Bible for myself. It is really easy to just believe what we believe and use the verses presented to us as "good enough", but there's not a lot of subjects I personally have sat down and really studied out for myself to see what ALL the Bible has to say on them. Even if I know what I believe and am 100% set on it, it is still my responsibility to "prove" it. Which doesn't mean picking and choosing a few verses that fit or asking the preacher.
I love God and I love truth, pure and simple. I have in the past been stubborn about my beliefs refuse to even consider the possibility that I might be wrong. Ignoring anything, including scripture that might make me question. That is what i have been taught to do and it is not right. I want truth, nothing more and nothing less.Iironically, i did originally go looking purely to prove myself right but that is not what I have found if the truth I find in God' word alone is not the "truth" that I have previously believed than I am in love with Him enough to accept what He teaches and deny what man teaches.
So, in my studying I'm learning so many things I never knew before and I'm loving it! I'm also learning that a lot of things I have been taught and have believed and even repeated myself, are not actually Biblical. This is one of those. Being that it is such a reverberated line and one I myself have repeated numerous times, I wanted to share it. I have looked into this myself but I also came across this article that put it really well. I really like some of his lines so i'm just going to copy and paste. You can follow the link at the bottom for the full article.
"Did Jesus really say more about hell than He did about heaven?
It has been claimed again and again that Jesus had more to say about hell than hedid about heaven.It has been repeated so oft that the assertion has become anunquestioned maxim.Many preachers have made the statement, not because they knew it to be true, or had actually counted the references, but because theyheard it said and assumed it so.But is it?
So supposedly this maxim of Jesus speaking more about hell than heaven (“muchmore frequently” said one) is not up for debate, but is a fact we can’t get around,one that most Christians know to be true, and is quickly evident with a quickreading of the New Testament.Is that so? Being one who’s not willing to takesomeone else’s word for it, I decided to see if it‘s true. Or could it be anothersquawk of lazy parrots? Something false does not become true by saying it overand over.And men behind a pulpit bear a great responsibility to verify theirstatements. So, DID JESUS PREACH MORE ABOUT HELL THAN HE DIDABOUT HEAVEN?DOES THE BIBLE SAY MORE ABOUT HELL THANHEAVEN?You be the judge.
The word count in the gospels is as follows: HEAVEN – 130; HELL – 15.Thoughthat is a significant disparity, it does not actually prove anything as to thequestion at hand.So let’s narrow the search.We’ll take out the references thatinclude the word “Father” as in “Father in heaven.”That means 130 – 28 = 102.So now we’re down to HEAVEN: 102; HELL – 15.That’s still greatlydisportionate; so let’s remove the references that include the word “kingdom,”thus 102 – 32 = 70.
Yet all 70 are not the words of Christ, or a reference to heaven as other than skyor space.Now if we take out all references to heaven as sky or space, and onlyinclude the words in red, we are down to 31, so it’s now 31 – 15.This is more thanfair, especially considering that we are leaving out “Father in heaven” and“kingdom of heaven.”But now of the 31 – 15, how many are duplicates of each(i.e., are quoted by more than one gospel)?That would leave us with HEAVEN –21; HELL – 10.
Now if we add other references to heaven or hell that do not quote the words (orthat have “Father” in it but give other details about heaven), we have eight moreapiece, thus HEAVEN – 29; HELL – 18. Christ speaks of heaven (not theatmosphere and not “Father in” or “kingdom of”) 29 times, while He speaks ofhell 18.This would be generous to hell being that some of the verses included,such as Matthew 3:12 which says “burn up” or 13:40 which says “as tares areburned” would not even be claimed by many as speaking of hell.And even if youincluded any mention of wailing and gnashing of teeth at the judgment (7 times),the count would still be in favor of heaven.
If“most Christians know that the Bible says more about hell than about heaven,” itis because they know the unsubstantiated, thought oft repeated, assertions of lazyparrots- not because they know their Bibles! (I was guilty!)
This is a very remarkable contention, considering that the gospelsrecord Jesus using the word life 71 times (39 in the gospel of John alone).Christspoke of “eternal life” 10 times and “everlasting life” 11 times.Again, keep inmind that though many equate or associate these phrases with heaven, we are notincluding them in the overall count for heaven.Also not included are the times Christ says “I go to the Father,” or any mentions of “the kingdom” in a final, future sense that most would associate with heaven.LIFE: 71 to HELL: 18.
More than death, Brother Dolphus?In some form or fashion, Christ spoke ofdeath and dying, especially His own, and the resurrection from the dead, over 50times.The Gospels record Christ also using the word perish 14 times.DEATH(and perish): 64+ to HELL: 18.
But there is one subject that He so obviously and absolutely preached more about“than He did anything” else that it is a wonder that the editors who includedPrice’s sermon in The Baptist Vision periodical, and in the book Great Preachingon Hell, would not have readily realized that this was an utterly false statement.Even a casual reading of the gospels should make this apparent (“even with just aquick reading of the New Testament it quickly becomes evident”- see above).Perhaps Christ said so much about this subject that many miss the obvious.
What is it? “From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the KINGDOM of heaven is at hand” (Matthew 4:17).“And Jesus went about allGalilee, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the KINGDOM” (Matthew 4:23).“And he said unto them, I must preach the KINGDOM of God to other cities also: for therefore am I sent” (Luke 4:43).OurLord commissioned the apostles, “Preach, saying, the KINGDOM of heaven is athand” (Matthew 10:7).“Kingdom” is included 9 times in the Sermon on theMount, including twice in the “Beatitudes” and twice in the “Lord’s Prayer.”Seven “kingdom parables” are recorded in Matthew chapter 13 alone, where theword is found 12 times.Many other times Christ would say “the kingdom ofheaven is like…” (Matthew 18:23; 20:1; 22:2; 25:1, 14).
Remember these classic statements?“Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs isthe kingdom of heaven” (Matthew 5:3).“Suffer the little children to come untome, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God” (Mark 10:14).“Howhardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God” (Mark 10:23).Christ taught His followers, “Seek ye first the kingdom of God” (Matthew 6:33),to pray “Thy kingdom come” (Matthew 6:10); and that “the kingdom of God iswithin you” (Luke 17:21).From His conversation with Nicodemus (“Except aman be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God” – John 3:3) to His OlivetDiscourse (“this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world” Matthew 24:14), Christ preached more about the kingdom than He did anything else.Peruse the listing under kingdom in a concordance.Look down through Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John.It will be evident.
Why does this matter?It matters because it reveals a serious problem with manyfolks understanding of endless torment. Instead of finding out what theScriptures actually say, they are content to repeat what they have heard without making a Berean search to see whether those things are so (Acts 17:11).Theyhaven’t bothered to investigate how Scripture consistently uses the word perish.They haven’t searched the Scripture concerning whether the soul is immortal, orif it can and will die.They haven’t made the effort to study the comprehensivecoherency of what all of the relevant texts consistently teach.
But they don’t mind glibly repeating that Christ taught more on hell than he didon heaven, even though it’s not true. For you that have been so persevering to read this to its conclusion, I must ask you: What else is not true about what you’ve always heard about hell, judgment, and endless torment? Will you continue to repeat, or will you endeavor to verify?"
I don't know about you but I find that last statement pretty convicting!
Here is the full article
The Great Spanking Debate
The subject of spanking is something I have been on the fence about. My own experience with it has proved to me that spanking MY child does in fact make him more aggressive and seems to give him the idea that hitting is ok. All children have different temperaments, but for mine, it is not effective. I have plans to do a full on indepth Bible study on the word "rod', but haven't gotten that far yet. There are SO many issues I need to work through first. I think it's safe to say spanking is Biblical, however the way I was taught about spanking and the way most "Christian" parenting books teach on discipline is way off and unscriptural. I definitely believe parents should be allowed to raise their children how they feel is best, (so long as that does not border on child abuse) but I would seriously say that at least 90% of the Christians I personally know are NOT basing their ideals on parenting (spanking here) purely from the Bible itself, but from "Biblical" parenting books and preaching and teaching. I LOATHE when people twist scriptures ESP when we are talking about harming little children. More on this subject later, the purpose of THIS post is to share this "debate" from last night. It wouldn't exactly qualify as a debate though, more of a one-sided blind spewing of verbal filth. What I would like to draw focus to is not the issue itself but the tone of the argument. I myself will admit I should have been more "Christian" in my attitude, but the style of her argument is so cookie cutter it's sickening. The more I read or talk to IFBers the more I have to admit I am seeing pattern in debate presentation. I have probably been guilty myself of the same antics, however I am at a point in my life where I really do not give a rat's arse what anyone thinks anymore. I want truth, God' truth, not man's twisted egotistical version of it. If I lose friends over standing on God' truth so be it! I am at peace with that :)
Moving on, a friend posted this link on her FB page. Great article! As with anything, take the good and leave the bad. I don't go around correcting everyone's parenting ideals that aren't in line with my own, (I try not to anyway haha) however when a person decides to lash out I get defensive :) It's in my nature ;p I'm not totally against spanking, but I will defend another mother who is.
In the end, she deleted all her posts. She DID however make a last comment of apology which was quite sincere and Christian of her, but then she immediately deleted that as well so I don't have the last apologetic one. I kind of wondered if her profile had been hacked though because the tone of her last message did not in any way form or fashion match the previous lol.
here we go... (names changed)
Asshat, What does this girl do with Prov 13:24, 22:15, 23:13, 23:14,
29:15? I gotta admit I spank my kids, in public or wherever. Not cause I want
them to be emberassed but because it stops the behavior and because I am the mom
and I know what is best period. I think this chica is wayyy off her rocker and
shes crazy if she thinks spanking is unbiblical, however I do agree that losing
control is unbiblical. That I try not to do period. And as for the mom on that
took her daughter out of the store, good for her that she wasnt scared to
discipline in front of people Im sure if she did it more she wouldn t have to
worry about those incidents. My kids would never scream and tell me no, they
learned that at like age 1!!!!
Yours Truly, wow your kids arn't even verbal and you've already taught them to
be terrified of you? good job mamma ;)
discipline means teach, not spank or punish. the Bible tells us to teach and to
love and be patient. the Bible tells us to be an example of God to our children.
God does not "raise" his children (us) the way most christians consider "godly"
parenting. God uses natural consequences to teach us, He doesn't "spank" us or
punish us every time we disobey. God's relationship with His children is based
on love and trust, not fear and control. parenting out of control only "works"
as long as you are big enough to assert you power. teaching a child to do right
out of fear of punishment does not instill true morals. they obey not because
they have learned to be good but because they have learned not to get caught.
godly parenting is teaching children to WANT to do right out of love, not using
physical force to MAKE them do right for fear of punishment. the same applies to
Christianity. the only true salvation is a choice to serve God out of love for
Him, not fear of hell.
as far as spanking being Biblical, have you ever actually done a bible study on
this subject for yourself? probably not. do a word study on "rod". contrary to
popular belief the rod is not a tool of abuse, but something shepherds used to
GUIDE their sheep. to keep them on the right path, not to hit them with if they
"disobey". the rod is used in the Bible as a source of comfort. Psalm 2:9thy rod
and thy staff they comfort me
the word "beat" would mean spank, not the word "rod". applying the definition of
"spanking" to the word "rod" is twisting and manipulating the scriptures to
justify child abuse. if you REALLY want to know what the Bible teaches you will
go "prove" it for yourself.
Prov 13:24, that verse is about discipline (teaching), chasten (correction)...
neither of those mean spank. use a dictionary before you manipulate scriptures.
Proverbs 22:15 "rod of correction" the Bible defines it's own words, this verse
defines "rod" as correction, not spanking, but "correction", teaching right from
wrong. that doesn't even require punishment of ANY kind.
Prov 29:15 rod- a tool of guidance and comfort (by Biblical definition) and
reproof (verbal correction). again not a single word in this verse about
spanking.
the Bible teaches us to discipline (teach) by guidance and correction. spanking
is not a requirement for raising good healthy Godly children. to my knowledge
the ONLY verse that seems to mention spanking is Proverbs 23:13-14 the first
part, correction. children can be corrected with love. teaching, discipline,
correction... none of those words mean punish or spank. that would be "adding
to" God's word. as to the second part of that verses, first of all, use some
common sense here. if this verse is to be taken literally than the Bible
contains a lie. beating children HAS ended in death. common sense will tell you
this verse does not literally mean beat if you believe that means we are
literally to beat our children, than you have to believe parents are literally
in control their children's eternal fate. if you take part of the verse literal,
you have to take the WHOLE verse literal. so you have to literally believe that
a grown person who was not spanked as a child is damned to "hell" regardless,
and that a person who WAS spanked as a child is going to heaven regardless....
wrong. no human is responsible for another human's salvation. it is just plain
ignorant to assume this verse is meant literal. ...on another note, the word
hell here actually means the grave so basically "beating" saves their life. i
believe in spanking for dangerous situations and as a last measure. if my
toddler is running out in the road, i will spank him. if he learns from the
spanking not to run in the road than i DID literally save his soul(life) from
"hell" (the grave).
so there you go, the Bible does not tell us to spank except it seems, in
instances of life threatening situations. which ironically is the collective
ideal of mother's who follow their God given maternal instinct rather than the
doctrine of man ("Biblical" parenting books).
if you want to use the Bible in a debate, be sure you know what it says first :)
i think most of us who are raised by that philosophy you just posted (myself
included) seem to think that discipline means spanking. that the only parenting
options are spanking or "leaving the child to himself". that is quite frankly
ignorance on our part. i am speaking for myself here and i am still learning as
i go. the IFB uses scare tactics and false accusations that children who are not
spanked are out of control and shooting people and cursing God. that is a load
of bologna. it is unsubstantiated and just plain false. i can name several
adults who were not spanked a single time as children and turned out MUCH better
than half of the spanked and "Biblically" reared people i went to HAC with. if
God promises that if we raise a child in the way he should go he wont' depart
from it, than either God is a liar or modern "christian" parenting (spanking,
asserting control and dominance rather than peace and love) is not "the way he
should go".
Jane, Im not trying to start anything here, but I spank my kids
and they are not terrified of me. I totally believe there is a time where a kid
should be spanked IF NEEDED. Its not something I do on a regular basis, but if i
have tried all other options then believe me its something i will resort to. I
dont go overboard, and I dont feel convicted afterwards. Im not judging anyone,
that isnt my position. So I will leave it at that.
Yours Truly, i am not anti spanking and i agree with you there is a time for
it, but too often Christians tend to WAY overuse and abuse the Bible to
arrogantly justify spanking all the time for everything. it's a bit of a hot
topic with me because of my personal experiences. the Bible as a whole does not
teach the style of parenting endorsed by the IFB that is presented to us as THE
way to raise Godly children. "how to rear children", "babywise", No Greater Joy
ministries... all of those teachings are man's opinion, not scripture. the Bible
is actually quite silent about many parenting topics. spanking as taught in the
previous mentioned sources is not taught in the Bible. when someone calls a
mother who chooses not to spank crazy i tend to ready a rebuttal :) lol. some of
the teachings on spanking in fundamentalism are not Biblical. eg, the above list
of verses. only one of those refers to spanking (beating actually). excerpts
from bro Hyles parenting books and others to spank from infancy, for "atleast
10minutes", until their "will is broken", spanking a child for getting up at
night, for having a potty accident etc. those are man's rules built onto a few
Bible verses. that is a pure and clear example of twisting and manipulating the
scriptures. phrases like "i'd rather go to jail for spanking my kids, than my
kids go to jail because i didn't", really set me off because i personally know
people who use the Bible as an excuse to abuse their children. like i said, it's
a personal issue with me. the reason i posted however is because being raised
IFB, we have heard "spare the rod and spoil the child" 3 times a week since
birth. the false teaching that children will turn out evil if they arn't spanked
as a primary discipline tool is pounded into our brains so that when we have our
own children is it subconscious that we feel guilty or scared they won't turn
out right for not doing the same with even when we know it is all bologna and
scripture twisting. regardless of church or no church though, the word
discipline itself is hugely misunderstood in our culture. hence the
misinterpretation of scripture. "let the word of God be true and every man a
liar"
i think it's important that people understand what the Bible
REALLY says about this subject, as opposed to what we have been taught by MAN
that it says. jmho.
Jane, I am not saying that not spanking your child is wrong
either. Every person has a different parenting style based on each individual
child. Something that works for my two year old might not work on my four year
old. What is wrong is when people take it too far. And believe me I have seen
that just walking through walmart. What made me upset is when you said that
spanking makes your kid terrified of you. Which is totally not the case. I think
this is a hot topic for any mother. No one is going to see eye to eye on this.
We as mothers need to support each other instead of accuse each other (excluding
those who actually do abuse their children).
Yours Truly, i think we agree moreso than disagree lol. when i said
"terrified" i was referring to her comment "My kids would never scream and tell
me no, they learned that at like age 1!!!!".. all those exclamations and the
reference to 24mo old in MY opinion sounds like a prime example of abuse. that's
just my opinion. i'm a little opinionated though.
oops 12mo. my kid is climbing on me
Sally, I agree Jane, for some kids spanking can be beneficial if
done in the proper manner (NOT in public, and with a spirit of love (not
anger)). If a parent must resort to spanking, it should NOT be an episode of
screaming fits an frustration, but rather a controlled connection between the
parent and the child that ends in love and makes the parent/child bond stronger.
The problem is that most times this is not the case. Spanking has become the "
cookie cutter" method of discipline for a lot of parents because "thats how they
were raised". All kids respond differently to different parenting methods, so to
say that spanking is the only option is not fair.
I'm not a perfect parent by any means, I am growing and learning right along
side my kids. I didn't post this article as a personal attack on any one person
or group, my intention was to provoke parents to perhaps explore other means of
guidance and correction for their kids.
Trust me, I know you Ashley, and I think your a great mom, I would never
question your parenting skills because it's obvious your boys adore you and
whatever your doing is working.
I think amber did make a lot of good points in terms of people taking scripture
way out of context. A lot of people just say " well the bible says" when they
really don't know what the bible is really saying. I know all parents out there
only have the best intentions in rearing there children, but so many of them are
painfully misinformed on biblical child rearing and just plain common sense.
Again, not meant to offend anyone, I just want to be the beat mom I can be and I
know all of you feel the same.
Oops, *best mom I can be haha
Asshat, Proverbs 26:4 "Answer Not a Fool according to His folly, lest
thous also be like unto him."
And as far as Bro Hyles. IDK what his book says bc I never read it, I prefer
Cindy and Jack Schaaps "Raising kings and queens" But I am REAL sure he didnt
say what you jkust quoted, however I do own the book so if you have a page and
phrase thatd be great. Bc I dont think its in there. And I tell you what the
Bible has a TON to say about saying bad things about His pastors or the men HE
ordained to preach.!!! Oh now thats another can of worms. Anyway...
Yours Truly, what does the Bible say about saying bad things about pastors?
Asshat, You may wanna start with 2 Kings 23-24, OH wait but you dont
think GOd ever used punishment on children?????
Or 1 Chron 16:20-22, Ps 105:12-15 or .... well ok Ill let you study it out.
(-insert- I did pick apart her references here but that paragraph seems to have disappeared. More scripture twisting and taking way out of context though)
Before theres a rebuttle that will make this any worse than it
is. I guess the proof as to whether I am a abusive mother will be in the
pudding, However I can gurantee you I have never hurt my children, other than
their feelings and They love me and their daddy to death!!! They are beautiful
blessings from God and I am so glad I get to raise them for Him. Praise the Lord
for allowing us the oppertunity, so raise them however you feel best, but why
fight with each other. Maybe our earnest prayer should be that God would allow
us to see that He has a way and if we do it His divine way then we can have
wonderful held together families with children who grow up to be saved and
contributing christians serving Him somwehere someday! Or maybe we should Pray
that our hearts would be right, bc if your biggest worry is spanking you are
closing your eyes to the much bigger things out in this world to get you babies
and ruin their testimonies and their little lives for the Lord.
Yours Truly, before i answer your previous response i want to say that
i do realize i was rude, however, your first response to the original link had
no more charity than my response to you. i hope you see that. before you call
someone way off her rocker and crazy and then proceed to cite verses in effort
to take a stance in an argument, it is important to know for sure what the Bible
teaches on the subject. i should have had a better tone myself, however, i do
not generally stand by and watch while someone is being ridiculed (called crazy)
by a person who is misusing scripture. not trying to be rude, just being honest.
spanking is not so much the issue as is false teaching and misinterpreting God's
Word.
Asshat, I accept your apology.
Maybe someday you can talk to the Lord about how His Word was
written and you didnt like it.
Yours Truly, now then... i never said God didn't punish children. i only said
the verses YOU posted were not about punishment. the word discipline does not
mean punish. punish can be a part of discipline but not the whole of discipline.
i also did not deny spanking can be Biblical. however, it IS a fact that many
scriptures get twisted in the name of child rearing. parenting is a subject that
brings out the claws.
"how to rear children", the chapter on discipline, starting on page 91. let me
insert that i assume his intentions were good, but i do not believe there is any
verse in the Bible that forbids the correcting of scripture manipulation
regardless of who it is by. calling out a error is not "saying bad things" about
the person. i more than appreciate the same for myself if i misrepresent God. i
think the majority of his book, while somewhat shallow and outdated does offer
good general parenting advice..a good bit of it is also terrible heresy and
false teaching. (ex: read the chapter on how to prevent your child from becoming
gay) i haven't read the Schaap's books so i can't comment on them. the pearls
and the ezzos are down right vomitous and ungodly to the extreme. in comparison
to theirs, Hyle's books are quite nice. lastly i would NEVER assume someone is
intentionally misinterpreting the scripture, however, we are COMANDED to
understand the scriptures esp if we are teaching others. we are also called
"equals" in God's family and are to admonish each other. i personally feel it is
our responsibility to speak out and expose false teaching for the sake of those
who are deceived by it. and quite frankly, i love God and i love His word, when
someone slanders God's Word or misuses it, i will not stand idly by twiddling my
thumbs. i will defend God and His truths regardless of who disagrees.
ok for starters, the first page of the chapter is specifically focused on the
product of not spanking. he uses judgmental language and name calling towards
anyone who does not agree with his view (spanking). it is quite clear if you
read over his whole book that he is misunderstanding the word discipline to be
synonymous with spanking. a common misconception that many of us make. he calls
those who spank "Bible believers and wise" and those who don't" Unconverted,
Bible- rejecting, misguided, deceived, swallowed this poison, prophets of
anarchy, followers of this heresy, foolish, disregarding the Word of God".
read his paragraph describing the children who were not spanked. those are false
claims based on nothing more than his opinion. every study ever done actually
proves just the opposite. my own personal experience proves just the opposite.
HIS own personal experience proves just the opposite. (His son?...) these are
scare tactics used to push an agenda. to scare parents into thinking they have
to follow these guidelines or their children will be heathens bound for hell. it
could not be any more obvious.
he then goes on to say that babies lie (sin) by quoting a verse waaaaaaaaaaay
out of context. i cannot even use enough "a's" in there to show how grossly
misused and out of context that verse is. read the chapter for yourself. you'll
see where my quotes came from, spanking from infancy, for 10min or more, until
their will is broken etc etc it goes on and on. i'm sure he truly believes he is
right and has good intentions, but it is still false teaching. very
pharisee-ish. taking one verse and adding a list of man made rules to it and
calling it "Biblical". anyone who has done a true Bible study on these subjects
can see the huge misinterpretation used by IFB preachers and teachers to push
spanking.my heart goes out to sincere and deceived parents and their often
abused children. sadly though, as you have proved, many people do not take the
time to study their Bible but rather get their doctrine from man. that is a
recipe for deception and disaster. and i'm not a Hyle's hater, i'm a false
teaching hater. when a person has such a huge influence over others it is vital
that they be careful what they teach and that it be "above reproach". i don't
pick apart man made doctrine just for fun. the subject of parenting is a big
deal though. i see too many people following bad advice because it is presented
from a pastor as Biblical. there is a host of other unbiblical and very ANTI
biblical advice in his book, but i will stop at this subject.
ps, the Bible calls a fool someone who does not gain understanding and knowledge
from the scripture. i am seeking only to know what the Bible teaches. if every
baptist preacher on the earth disagrees, so be it. i stand on the Word and the
Word alone. the Bible speaks for itself. "let the word of God be true and every
man a liar.".
and maybe someday you can talk to the Lord and eexplain why you
didn't study His word.
Asshat, Oh I dont have to wait to talk to Him I do it on a daily basis
sweetie! Wink wink
And lets just make this over, I mean really, YOu dont know what
your talking about and Im afraid you wont be able to sleep in good consicence if
you dont stop somewhere.
Yours Truly, quite the contraire. the more you talk, the more confident i am
in the scriptures. you have basically done nothing but deny your
misrepresentation of the scriptures, ignore your rude remarks, revert the
conversation away from your own errors, and... well there is no better word for
it than willful ignorance... this was actually quite fun. the more scriptures
you throw out, the more i get to look them up and learn truth. so thank you for
helping me grow :)
Asshat, There is really nothing I can say to make this better. I mean "AS
a dog returneth to his vomit, so a fool returneth to his folly" Prov 26:11 your
just going to keep going back. I mean i aint gonna convinve you and we really
arent helping each other. You are thoroughly convinced you know more BIBLE than
Pastors (Bro Hyles) even though they spent a lifetime studying God's Word. I
mean that alone is enough said...
Oh but I did wanna tell you to look up ROD in the strongs concordance, it says "
a stick for punishing, fighting, writing, ruling, walking it is an authority in
the hands of the ruler..." theres a ton more I aint gonna write tonight, but
since your enjoying learning more I thought that was interesting. That would
kinda shoot your whole theory in the head.
Yours Truly, my theory? my theory is that spanking is Biblical but not to the extreme most
often taken. and not in context with every verse used to support it. and yes i
do love to study. the Bible defines it's own words. rod has quite a few
meanings. more than just the ones you mentioned. it's about context. the even
bigger misconception of "rod", is the misconception of "discipline".
and i doubt i know more scripture than Hyles. he had many more years in it than
i have. that does not make him infallible. any person who is at a place where
they agree 100% with what a preacher says, any preacher, is putting their faith
in man and not God. no human is perfect regardless of how old they are or how
many people that have preached to. ..."enough said" in your response seems to
say you are content to let another human being do your studying for you. the
Bible actually talks quite a bit about getting our doctrine from God rather than
man and proving all things.
btw i could care less if you call me a fool or a dog, but for your own sake, i
would be careful about using the Bible to name call with. that is not what God
gives us the scriptures for and you will have to answer to Him for that one day.
just honest concern.
And she goes on to apologize but immediately deletes it so that bit is lost. The End.
Moving on, a friend posted this link on her FB page. Great article! As with anything, take the good and leave the bad. I don't go around correcting everyone's parenting ideals that aren't in line with my own, (I try not to anyway haha) however when a person decides to lash out I get defensive :) It's in my nature ;p I'm not totally against spanking, but I will defend another mother who is.
In the end, she deleted all her posts. She DID however make a last comment of apology which was quite sincere and Christian of her, but then she immediately deleted that as well so I don't have the last apologetic one. I kind of wondered if her profile had been hacked though because the tone of her last message did not in any way form or fashion match the previous lol.
here we go... (names changed)
Asshat, What does this girl do with Prov 13:24, 22:15, 23:13, 23:14,
29:15? I gotta admit I spank my kids, in public or wherever. Not cause I want
them to be emberassed but because it stops the behavior and because I am the mom
and I know what is best period. I think this chica is wayyy off her rocker and
shes crazy if she thinks spanking is unbiblical, however I do agree that losing
control is unbiblical. That I try not to do period. And as for the mom on that
took her daughter out of the store, good for her that she wasnt scared to
discipline in front of people Im sure if she did it more she wouldn t have to
worry about those incidents. My kids would never scream and tell me no, they
learned that at like age 1!!!!
Yours Truly, wow your kids arn't even verbal and you've already taught them to
be terrified of you? good job mamma ;)
discipline means teach, not spank or punish. the Bible tells us to teach and to
love and be patient. the Bible tells us to be an example of God to our children.
God does not "raise" his children (us) the way most christians consider "godly"
parenting. God uses natural consequences to teach us, He doesn't "spank" us or
punish us every time we disobey. God's relationship with His children is based
on love and trust, not fear and control. parenting out of control only "works"
as long as you are big enough to assert you power. teaching a child to do right
out of fear of punishment does not instill true morals. they obey not because
they have learned to be good but because they have learned not to get caught.
godly parenting is teaching children to WANT to do right out of love, not using
physical force to MAKE them do right for fear of punishment. the same applies to
Christianity. the only true salvation is a choice to serve God out of love for
Him, not fear of hell.
as far as spanking being Biblical, have you ever actually done a bible study on
this subject for yourself? probably not. do a word study on "rod". contrary to
popular belief the rod is not a tool of abuse, but something shepherds used to
GUIDE their sheep. to keep them on the right path, not to hit them with if they
"disobey". the rod is used in the Bible as a source of comfort. Psalm 2:9thy rod
and thy staff they comfort me
the word "beat" would mean spank, not the word "rod". applying the definition of
"spanking" to the word "rod" is twisting and manipulating the scriptures to
justify child abuse. if you REALLY want to know what the Bible teaches you will
go "prove" it for yourself.
Prov 13:24, that verse is about discipline (teaching), chasten (correction)...
neither of those mean spank. use a dictionary before you manipulate scriptures.
Proverbs 22:15 "rod of correction" the Bible defines it's own words, this verse
defines "rod" as correction, not spanking, but "correction", teaching right from
wrong. that doesn't even require punishment of ANY kind.
Prov 29:15 rod- a tool of guidance and comfort (by Biblical definition) and
reproof (verbal correction). again not a single word in this verse about
spanking.
the Bible teaches us to discipline (teach) by guidance and correction. spanking
is not a requirement for raising good healthy Godly children. to my knowledge
the ONLY verse that seems to mention spanking is Proverbs 23:13-14 the first
part, correction. children can be corrected with love. teaching, discipline,
correction... none of those words mean punish or spank. that would be "adding
to" God's word. as to the second part of that verses, first of all, use some
common sense here. if this verse is to be taken literally than the Bible
contains a lie. beating children HAS ended in death. common sense will tell you
this verse does not literally mean beat if you believe that means we are
literally to beat our children, than you have to believe parents are literally
in control their children's eternal fate. if you take part of the verse literal,
you have to take the WHOLE verse literal. so you have to literally believe that
a grown person who was not spanked as a child is damned to "hell" regardless,
and that a person who WAS spanked as a child is going to heaven regardless....
wrong. no human is responsible for another human's salvation. it is just plain
ignorant to assume this verse is meant literal. ...on another note, the word
hell here actually means the grave so basically "beating" saves their life. i
believe in spanking for dangerous situations and as a last measure. if my
toddler is running out in the road, i will spank him. if he learns from the
spanking not to run in the road than i DID literally save his soul(life) from
"hell" (the grave).
so there you go, the Bible does not tell us to spank except it seems, in
instances of life threatening situations. which ironically is the collective
ideal of mother's who follow their God given maternal instinct rather than the
doctrine of man ("Biblical" parenting books).
if you want to use the Bible in a debate, be sure you know what it says first :)
i think most of us who are raised by that philosophy you just posted (myself
included) seem to think that discipline means spanking. that the only parenting
options are spanking or "leaving the child to himself". that is quite frankly
ignorance on our part. i am speaking for myself here and i am still learning as
i go. the IFB uses scare tactics and false accusations that children who are not
spanked are out of control and shooting people and cursing God. that is a load
of bologna. it is unsubstantiated and just plain false. i can name several
adults who were not spanked a single time as children and turned out MUCH better
than half of the spanked and "Biblically" reared people i went to HAC with. if
God promises that if we raise a child in the way he should go he wont' depart
from it, than either God is a liar or modern "christian" parenting (spanking,
asserting control and dominance rather than peace and love) is not "the way he
should go".
Jane, Im not trying to start anything here, but I spank my kids
and they are not terrified of me. I totally believe there is a time where a kid
should be spanked IF NEEDED. Its not something I do on a regular basis, but if i
have tried all other options then believe me its something i will resort to. I
dont go overboard, and I dont feel convicted afterwards. Im not judging anyone,
that isnt my position. So I will leave it at that.
Yours Truly, i am not anti spanking and i agree with you there is a time for
it, but too often Christians tend to WAY overuse and abuse the Bible to
arrogantly justify spanking all the time for everything. it's a bit of a hot
topic with me because of my personal experiences. the Bible as a whole does not
teach the style of parenting endorsed by the IFB that is presented to us as THE
way to raise Godly children. "how to rear children", "babywise", No Greater Joy
ministries... all of those teachings are man's opinion, not scripture. the Bible
is actually quite silent about many parenting topics. spanking as taught in the
previous mentioned sources is not taught in the Bible. when someone calls a
mother who chooses not to spank crazy i tend to ready a rebuttal :) lol. some of
the teachings on spanking in fundamentalism are not Biblical. eg, the above list
of verses. only one of those refers to spanking (beating actually). excerpts
from bro Hyles parenting books and others to spank from infancy, for "atleast
10minutes", until their "will is broken", spanking a child for getting up at
night, for having a potty accident etc. those are man's rules built onto a few
Bible verses. that is a pure and clear example of twisting and manipulating the
scriptures. phrases like "i'd rather go to jail for spanking my kids, than my
kids go to jail because i didn't", really set me off because i personally know
people who use the Bible as an excuse to abuse their children. like i said, it's
a personal issue with me. the reason i posted however is because being raised
IFB, we have heard "spare the rod and spoil the child" 3 times a week since
birth. the false teaching that children will turn out evil if they arn't spanked
as a primary discipline tool is pounded into our brains so that when we have our
own children is it subconscious that we feel guilty or scared they won't turn
out right for not doing the same with even when we know it is all bologna and
scripture twisting. regardless of church or no church though, the word
discipline itself is hugely misunderstood in our culture. hence the
misinterpretation of scripture. "let the word of God be true and every man a
liar"
i think it's important that people understand what the Bible
REALLY says about this subject, as opposed to what we have been taught by MAN
that it says. jmho.
Jane, I am not saying that not spanking your child is wrong
either. Every person has a different parenting style based on each individual
child. Something that works for my two year old might not work on my four year
old. What is wrong is when people take it too far. And believe me I have seen
that just walking through walmart. What made me upset is when you said that
spanking makes your kid terrified of you. Which is totally not the case. I think
this is a hot topic for any mother. No one is going to see eye to eye on this.
We as mothers need to support each other instead of accuse each other (excluding
those who actually do abuse their children).
Yours Truly, i think we agree moreso than disagree lol. when i said
"terrified" i was referring to her comment "My kids would never scream and tell
me no, they learned that at like age 1!!!!".. all those exclamations and the
reference to 24mo old in MY opinion sounds like a prime example of abuse. that's
just my opinion. i'm a little opinionated though.
oops 12mo. my kid is climbing on me
Sally, I agree Jane, for some kids spanking can be beneficial if
done in the proper manner (NOT in public, and with a spirit of love (not
anger)). If a parent must resort to spanking, it should NOT be an episode of
screaming fits an frustration, but rather a controlled connection between the
parent and the child that ends in love and makes the parent/child bond stronger.
The problem is that most times this is not the case. Spanking has become the "
cookie cutter" method of discipline for a lot of parents because "thats how they
were raised". All kids respond differently to different parenting methods, so to
say that spanking is the only option is not fair.
I'm not a perfect parent by any means, I am growing and learning right along
side my kids. I didn't post this article as a personal attack on any one person
or group, my intention was to provoke parents to perhaps explore other means of
guidance and correction for their kids.
Trust me, I know you Ashley, and I think your a great mom, I would never
question your parenting skills because it's obvious your boys adore you and
whatever your doing is working.
I think amber did make a lot of good points in terms of people taking scripture
way out of context. A lot of people just say " well the bible says" when they
really don't know what the bible is really saying. I know all parents out there
only have the best intentions in rearing there children, but so many of them are
painfully misinformed on biblical child rearing and just plain common sense.
Again, not meant to offend anyone, I just want to be the beat mom I can be and I
know all of you feel the same.
Oops, *best mom I can be haha
Asshat, Proverbs 26:4 "Answer Not a Fool according to His folly, lest
thous also be like unto him."
And as far as Bro Hyles. IDK what his book says bc I never read it, I prefer
Cindy and Jack Schaaps "Raising kings and queens" But I am REAL sure he didnt
say what you jkust quoted, however I do own the book so if you have a page and
phrase thatd be great. Bc I dont think its in there. And I tell you what the
Bible has a TON to say about saying bad things about His pastors or the men HE
ordained to preach.!!! Oh now thats another can of worms. Anyway...
Yours Truly, what does the Bible say about saying bad things about pastors?
Asshat, You may wanna start with 2 Kings 23-24, OH wait but you dont
think GOd ever used punishment on children?????
Or 1 Chron 16:20-22, Ps 105:12-15 or .... well ok Ill let you study it out.
(-insert- I did pick apart her references here but that paragraph seems to have disappeared. More scripture twisting and taking way out of context though)
Before theres a rebuttle that will make this any worse than it
is. I guess the proof as to whether I am a abusive mother will be in the
pudding, However I can gurantee you I have never hurt my children, other than
their feelings and They love me and their daddy to death!!! They are beautiful
blessings from God and I am so glad I get to raise them for Him. Praise the Lord
for allowing us the oppertunity, so raise them however you feel best, but why
fight with each other. Maybe our earnest prayer should be that God would allow
us to see that He has a way and if we do it His divine way then we can have
wonderful held together families with children who grow up to be saved and
contributing christians serving Him somwehere someday! Or maybe we should Pray
that our hearts would be right, bc if your biggest worry is spanking you are
closing your eyes to the much bigger things out in this world to get you babies
and ruin their testimonies and their little lives for the Lord.
Yours Truly, before i answer your previous response i want to say that
i do realize i was rude, however, your first response to the original link had
no more charity than my response to you. i hope you see that. before you call
someone way off her rocker and crazy and then proceed to cite verses in effort
to take a stance in an argument, it is important to know for sure what the Bible
teaches on the subject. i should have had a better tone myself, however, i do
not generally stand by and watch while someone is being ridiculed (called crazy)
by a person who is misusing scripture. not trying to be rude, just being honest.
spanking is not so much the issue as is false teaching and misinterpreting God's
Word.
Asshat, I accept your apology.
Maybe someday you can talk to the Lord about how His Word was
written and you didnt like it.
Yours Truly, now then... i never said God didn't punish children. i only said
the verses YOU posted were not about punishment. the word discipline does not
mean punish. punish can be a part of discipline but not the whole of discipline.
i also did not deny spanking can be Biblical. however, it IS a fact that many
scriptures get twisted in the name of child rearing. parenting is a subject that
brings out the claws.
"how to rear children", the chapter on discipline, starting on page 91. let me
insert that i assume his intentions were good, but i do not believe there is any
verse in the Bible that forbids the correcting of scripture manipulation
regardless of who it is by. calling out a error is not "saying bad things" about
the person. i more than appreciate the same for myself if i misrepresent God. i
think the majority of his book, while somewhat shallow and outdated does offer
good general parenting advice..a good bit of it is also terrible heresy and
false teaching. (ex: read the chapter on how to prevent your child from becoming
gay) i haven't read the Schaap's books so i can't comment on them. the pearls
and the ezzos are down right vomitous and ungodly to the extreme. in comparison
to theirs, Hyle's books are quite nice. lastly i would NEVER assume someone is
intentionally misinterpreting the scripture, however, we are COMANDED to
understand the scriptures esp if we are teaching others. we are also called
"equals" in God's family and are to admonish each other. i personally feel it is
our responsibility to speak out and expose false teaching for the sake of those
who are deceived by it. and quite frankly, i love God and i love His word, when
someone slanders God's Word or misuses it, i will not stand idly by twiddling my
thumbs. i will defend God and His truths regardless of who disagrees.
ok for starters, the first page of the chapter is specifically focused on the
product of not spanking. he uses judgmental language and name calling towards
anyone who does not agree with his view (spanking). it is quite clear if you
read over his whole book that he is misunderstanding the word discipline to be
synonymous with spanking. a common misconception that many of us make. he calls
those who spank "Bible believers and wise" and those who don't" Unconverted,
Bible- rejecting, misguided, deceived, swallowed this poison, prophets of
anarchy, followers of this heresy, foolish, disregarding the Word of God".
read his paragraph describing the children who were not spanked. those are false
claims based on nothing more than his opinion. every study ever done actually
proves just the opposite. my own personal experience proves just the opposite.
HIS own personal experience proves just the opposite. (His son?...) these are
scare tactics used to push an agenda. to scare parents into thinking they have
to follow these guidelines or their children will be heathens bound for hell. it
could not be any more obvious.
he then goes on to say that babies lie (sin) by quoting a verse waaaaaaaaaaay
out of context. i cannot even use enough "a's" in there to show how grossly
misused and out of context that verse is. read the chapter for yourself. you'll
see where my quotes came from, spanking from infancy, for 10min or more, until
their will is broken etc etc it goes on and on. i'm sure he truly believes he is
right and has good intentions, but it is still false teaching. very
pharisee-ish. taking one verse and adding a list of man made rules to it and
calling it "Biblical". anyone who has done a true Bible study on these subjects
can see the huge misinterpretation used by IFB preachers and teachers to push
spanking.my heart goes out to sincere and deceived parents and their often
abused children. sadly though, as you have proved, many people do not take the
time to study their Bible but rather get their doctrine from man. that is a
recipe for deception and disaster. and i'm not a Hyle's hater, i'm a false
teaching hater. when a person has such a huge influence over others it is vital
that they be careful what they teach and that it be "above reproach". i don't
pick apart man made doctrine just for fun. the subject of parenting is a big
deal though. i see too many people following bad advice because it is presented
from a pastor as Biblical. there is a host of other unbiblical and very ANTI
biblical advice in his book, but i will stop at this subject.
ps, the Bible calls a fool someone who does not gain understanding and knowledge
from the scripture. i am seeking only to know what the Bible teaches. if every
baptist preacher on the earth disagrees, so be it. i stand on the Word and the
Word alone. the Bible speaks for itself. "let the word of God be true and every
man a liar.".
and maybe someday you can talk to the Lord and eexplain why you
didn't study His word.
Asshat, Oh I dont have to wait to talk to Him I do it on a daily basis
sweetie! Wink wink
And lets just make this over, I mean really, YOu dont know what
your talking about and Im afraid you wont be able to sleep in good consicence if
you dont stop somewhere.
Yours Truly, quite the contraire. the more you talk, the more confident i am
in the scriptures. you have basically done nothing but deny your
misrepresentation of the scriptures, ignore your rude remarks, revert the
conversation away from your own errors, and... well there is no better word for
it than willful ignorance... this was actually quite fun. the more scriptures
you throw out, the more i get to look them up and learn truth. so thank you for
helping me grow :)
Asshat, There is really nothing I can say to make this better. I mean "AS
a dog returneth to his vomit, so a fool returneth to his folly" Prov 26:11 your
just going to keep going back. I mean i aint gonna convinve you and we really
arent helping each other. You are thoroughly convinced you know more BIBLE than
Pastors (Bro Hyles) even though they spent a lifetime studying God's Word. I
mean that alone is enough said...
Oh but I did wanna tell you to look up ROD in the strongs concordance, it says "
a stick for punishing, fighting, writing, ruling, walking it is an authority in
the hands of the ruler..." theres a ton more I aint gonna write tonight, but
since your enjoying learning more I thought that was interesting. That would
kinda shoot your whole theory in the head.
Yours Truly, my theory? my theory is that spanking is Biblical but not to the extreme most
often taken. and not in context with every verse used to support it. and yes i
do love to study. the Bible defines it's own words. rod has quite a few
meanings. more than just the ones you mentioned. it's about context. the even
bigger misconception of "rod", is the misconception of "discipline".
and i doubt i know more scripture than Hyles. he had many more years in it than
i have. that does not make him infallible. any person who is at a place where
they agree 100% with what a preacher says, any preacher, is putting their faith
in man and not God. no human is perfect regardless of how old they are or how
many people that have preached to. ..."enough said" in your response seems to
say you are content to let another human being do your studying for you. the
Bible actually talks quite a bit about getting our doctrine from God rather than
man and proving all things.
btw i could care less if you call me a fool or a dog, but for your own sake, i
would be careful about using the Bible to name call with. that is not what God
gives us the scriptures for and you will have to answer to Him for that one day.
just honest concern.
And she goes on to apologize but immediately deletes it so that bit is lost. The End.
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