Friday, April 29, 2011

The Great Spanking Debate

The subject of spanking is something I have been on the fence about. My own experience with it has proved to me that spanking MY child does in fact make him more aggressive and seems to give him the idea that hitting is ok. All children have different temperaments, but for mine, it is not effective. I have plans to do a full on indepth Bible study on the word "rod', but haven't gotten that far yet. There are SO many issues I need to work through first. I think it's safe to say spanking is Biblical, however the way I was taught about spanking and the way most "Christian" parenting books teach on discipline is way off and unscriptural. I definitely believe parents should be allowed to raise their children how they feel is best, (so long as that does not border on child abuse) but I would seriously say that at least 90% of the Christians I personally know are NOT basing their ideals on parenting (spanking here) purely from the Bible itself, but from "Biblical" parenting books and preaching and teaching. I LOATHE when people twist scriptures ESP when we are talking about harming little children. More on this subject later, the purpose of THIS post is to share this "debate" from last night. It wouldn't exactly qualify as a debate though, more of a one-sided blind spewing of verbal filth. What I would like to draw focus to is not the issue itself but the tone of the argument. I myself will admit I should have been more "Christian" in my attitude, but the style of her argument is so cookie cutter it's sickening. The more I read or talk to IFBers the more I have to admit I am seeing pattern in debate presentation. I have probably been guilty myself of the same antics, however I am at a point in my life where I really do not give a rat's arse what anyone thinks anymore. I want truth, God' truth, not man's twisted egotistical version of it. If I lose friends over standing on God' truth so be it! I am at peace with that :)

Moving on, a friend posted this link on her FB page. Great article! As with anything, take the good and leave the bad. I don't go around correcting everyone's parenting ideals that aren't in line with my own, (I try not to anyway haha) however when a person decides to lash out I get defensive :)  It's in my nature ;p   I'm not totally against spanking, but I will defend another mother who is. 

In the end, she deleted all her posts. She DID however make a last comment of apology which was quite sincere and Christian of her, but then she immediately deleted that as well so I don't have the last apologetic one. I kind of wondered if her profile had been hacked though because the tone of her last message did not in any way form or fashion match the previous lol. 

here we go... (names changed)

 Asshat,  What does this girl do with Prov 13:24, 22:15, 23:13, 23:14, 
29:15? I gotta admit I spank my kids, in public or wherever. Not cause I want 
them to be emberassed but because it stops the behavior and because I am the mom 
and I know what is best period. I think this chica is wayyy off her rocker and 
shes crazy if she thinks spanking is unbiblical, however I do agree that losing 
control is unbiblical. That I try not to do period. And as for the mom on that 
took her daughter out of the store, good for her that she wasnt scared to 
discipline in front of people Im sure if she did it more she wouldn t have to 
worry about those incidents. My kids would never scream and tell me no, they 
learned that at like age 1!!!!

 Yours Truly, wow your kids arn't even verbal and you've already taught them to 
be terrified of you? good job mamma ;) 

discipline means teach, not spank or punish. the Bible tells us to teach and to 
love and be patient. the Bible tells us to be an example of God to our children. 
God does not "raise" his children (us) the way most christians consider "godly" 
parenting. God uses natural consequences to teach us, He doesn't "spank" us or 
punish us every time we disobey. God's relationship with His children is based 
on love and trust, not fear and control. parenting out of control only "works" 
as long as you are big enough to assert you power. teaching a child to do right 
out of fear of punishment does not instill true morals. they obey not because 
they have learned to be good but because they have learned not to get caught. 
godly parenting is teaching children to WANT to do right out of love, not using 
physical force to MAKE them do right for fear of punishment. the same applies to 
Christianity. the only true salvation is a choice to serve God out of love for 
Him, not fear of hell. 

as far as spanking being Biblical, have you ever actually done a bible study on 
this subject for yourself? probably not. do a word study on "rod". contrary to 
popular belief the rod is not a tool of abuse, but something shepherds used to 
GUIDE their sheep. to keep them on the right path, not to hit them with if they 
"disobey". the rod is used in the Bible as a source of comfort. Psalm 2:9thy rod 
and thy staff they comfort me

the word "beat" would mean spank, not the word "rod". applying the definition of 
"spanking" to the word "rod" is twisting and manipulating the scriptures to 
justify child abuse. if you REALLY want to know what the Bible teaches you will 
go "prove" it for yourself.

Prov 13:24, that verse is about discipline (teaching), chasten (correction)... 
neither of those mean spank. use a dictionary before you manipulate scriptures.

Proverbs 22:15 "rod of correction" the Bible defines it's own words, this verse 
defines "rod" as correction, not spanking, but "correction", teaching right from 
wrong. that doesn't even require punishment of ANY kind. 

Prov 29:15 rod- a tool of guidance and comfort (by Biblical definition) and 
reproof (verbal correction). again not a single word in this verse about 

the Bible teaches us to discipline (teach) by guidance and correction. spanking 
is not a requirement for raising good healthy Godly children. to my knowledge 
the ONLY verse that seems to mention spanking is Proverbs 23:13-14 the first 
part, correction. children can be corrected with love. teaching, discipline, 
correction... none of those words mean punish or spank. that would be "adding 
to" God's word. as to the second part of that verses, first of all, use some 
common sense here. if this verse is to be taken literally than the Bible 
contains a lie. beating children HAS ended in death. common sense will tell you 
this verse does not literally mean beat if you believe that means we are 
literally to beat our children, than you have to believe parents are literally 
in control their children's eternal fate. if you take part of the verse literal, 
you have to take the WHOLE verse literal. so you have to literally believe that 
a grown person who was not spanked as a child is damned to "hell" regardless, 
and that a person who WAS spanked as a child is going to heaven regardless.... 
wrong. no human is responsible for another human's salvation. it is just plain 
ignorant to assume this verse is meant literal. ...on another note, the word 
hell here actually means the grave so basically "beating" saves their life. i 
believe in spanking for dangerous situations and as a last measure. if my 
toddler is running out in the road, i will spank him. if he learns from the 
spanking not to run in the road than i DID literally save his soul(life) from 
"hell" (the grave).

so there you go, the Bible does not tell us to spank except it seems, in 
instances of life threatening situations. which ironically is the collective 
ideal of mother's who follow their God given maternal instinct rather than the 
doctrine of man ("Biblical" parenting books).

if you want to use the Bible in a debate, be sure you know what it says first :) 
i think most of us who are raised by that philosophy you just posted (myself 
included) seem to think that discipline means spanking. that the only parenting 
options are spanking or "leaving the child to himself". that is quite frankly 
ignorance on our part. i am speaking for myself here and i am still learning as 
i go. the IFB uses scare tactics and false accusations that children who are not 
spanked are out of control and shooting people and cursing God. that is a load 
of bologna. it is unsubstantiated and just plain false. i can name several 
adults who were not spanked a single time as children and turned out MUCH better 
than half of the spanked and "Biblically" reared people i went to HAC with. if 
God promises that if we raise a child in the way he should go he wont' depart 
from it, than either God is a liar or modern "christian" parenting (spanking, 
asserting control and dominance rather than peace and love) is not "the way he 
should go".

Jane, Im not trying to start anything here, but I spank my kids 
and they are not terrified of me. I totally believe there is a time where a kid 
should be spanked IF NEEDED. Its not something I do on a regular basis, but if i 
have tried all other options then believe me its something i will resort to. I 
dont go overboard, and I dont feel convicted afterwards. Im not judging anyone, 
that isnt my position. So I will leave it at that.

Yours Truly, i am not anti spanking and i agree with you there is a time for 
it, but too often Christians tend to WAY overuse and abuse the Bible to 
arrogantly justify spanking all the time for everything. it's a bit of a hot 
topic with me because of my personal experiences. the Bible as a whole does not 
teach the style of parenting endorsed by the IFB that is presented to us as THE 
way to raise Godly children. "how to rear children", "babywise", No Greater Joy 
ministries... all of those teachings are man's opinion, not scripture. the Bible 
is actually quite silent about many parenting topics. spanking as taught in the 
previous mentioned sources is not taught in the Bible. when someone calls a 
mother who chooses not to spank crazy i tend to ready a rebuttal :) lol. some of 
the teachings on spanking in fundamentalism are not Biblical. eg, the above list 
of verses. only one of those refers to spanking (beating actually). excerpts 
from bro Hyles parenting books and others to spank from infancy, for "atleast 
10minutes", until their "will is broken", spanking a child for getting up at 
night, for having a potty accident etc. those are man's rules built onto a few 
Bible verses. that is a pure and clear example of twisting and manipulating the 
scriptures. phrases like "i'd rather go to jail for spanking my kids, than my 
kids go to jail because i didn't", really set me off because i personally know 
people who use the Bible as an excuse to abuse their children. like i said, it's 
a personal issue with me. the reason i posted however is because being raised 
IFB, we have heard "spare the rod and spoil the child" 3 times a week since 
birth. the false teaching that children will turn out evil if they arn't spanked 
as a primary discipline tool is pounded into our brains so that when we have our 
own children is it subconscious that we feel guilty or scared they won't turn 
out right for not doing the same with even when we know it is all bologna and 
scripture twisting. regardless of church or no church though, the word 
discipline itself is hugely misunderstood in our culture. hence the 
misinterpretation of scripture. "let the word of God be true and every man a 

 i think it's important that people understand what the Bible 
REALLY says about this subject, as opposed to what we have been taught by MAN 
that it says. jmho.

Jane, I am not saying that not spanking your child is wrong 
either. Every person has a different parenting style based on each individual 
child. Something that works for my two year old might not work on my four year 
old. What is wrong is when people take it too far. And believe me I have seen 
that just walking through walmart. What made me upset is when you said that 
spanking makes your kid terrified of you. Which is totally not the case. I think 
this is a hot topic for any mother. No one is going to see eye to eye on this. 
We as mothers need to support each other instead of accuse each other (excluding 
those who actually do abuse their children).

Yours Truly, i think we agree moreso than disagree lol. when i said 
"terrified" i was referring to her comment "My kids would never scream and tell 
me no, they learned that at like age 1!!!!".. all those exclamations and the 
reference to 24mo old in MY opinion sounds like a prime example of abuse. that's 
just my opinion. i'm a little opinionated though.

 oops 12mo. my kid is climbing on me

Sally, I agree Jane, for some kids spanking can be beneficial if 
done in the proper manner (NOT in public, and with a spirit of love (not 
anger)). If a parent must resort to spanking, it should NOT be an episode of 
screaming fits an frustration, but rather a controlled connection between the 
parent and the child that ends in love and makes the parent/child bond stronger. 
The problem is that most times this is not the case. Spanking has become the " 
cookie cutter" method of discipline for a lot of parents because "thats how they 
were raised". All kids respond differently to different parenting methods, so to 
say that spanking is the only option is not fair. 
I'm not a perfect parent by any means, I am growing and learning right along 
side my kids. I didn't post this article as a personal attack on any one person 
or group, my intention was to provoke parents to perhaps explore other means of 
guidance and correction for their kids. 
Trust me, I know you Ashley, and I think your a great mom, I would never 
question your parenting skills because it's obvious your boys adore you and 
whatever your doing is working. 
I think amber did make a lot of good points in terms of people taking scripture 
way out of context. A lot of people just say " well the bible says" when they 
really don't know what the bible is really saying. I know all parents out there 
only have the best intentions in rearing there children, but so many of them are 
painfully misinformed on biblical child rearing and just plain common sense. 
Again, not meant to offend anyone, I just want to be the beat mom I can be and I 
know all of you feel the same.

 Oops, *best mom I can be haha

 Asshat, Proverbs 26:4 "Answer Not a Fool according to His folly, lest 
thous also be like unto him." 

And as far as Bro Hyles. IDK what his book says bc I never read it, I prefer 
Cindy and Jack Schaaps "Raising kings and queens" But I am REAL sure he didnt 
say what you jkust quoted, however I do own the book so if you have a page and 
phrase thatd be great. Bc I dont think its in there. And I tell you what the 
Bible has a TON to say about saying bad things about His pastors or the men HE 
ordained to preach.!!! Oh now thats another can of worms. Anyway...

Yours Truly, what does the Bible say about saying bad things about pastors?

 Asshat, You may wanna start with 2 Kings 23-24, OH wait but you dont 
think GOd ever used punishment on children????? 
Or 1 Chron 16:20-22, Ps 105:12-15 or .... well ok Ill let you study it out.

(-insert- I did pick apart her references here but that paragraph seems to have disappeared. More scripture twisting and taking way out of context though)

 Before theres a rebuttle that will make this any worse than it 
is. I guess the proof as to whether I am a abusive mother will be in the 
pudding, However I can gurantee you I have never hurt my children, other than 
their feelings and They love me and their daddy to death!!! They are beautiful 
blessings from God and I am so glad I get to raise them for Him. Praise the Lord 
for allowing us the oppertunity, so raise them however you feel best, but why 
fight with each other. Maybe our earnest prayer should be that God would allow 
us to see that He has a way and if we do it His divine way then we can have 
wonderful held together families with children who grow up to be saved and 
contributing christians serving Him somwehere someday! Or maybe we should Pray 
that our hearts would be right, bc if your biggest worry is spanking you are 
closing your eyes to the much bigger things out in this world to get you babies 
and ruin their testimonies and their little lives for the Lord.

Yours Truly,  before i answer your previous response i want to say that 
i do realize i was rude, however, your first response to the original link had 
no more charity than my response to you. i hope you see that. before you call 
someone way off her rocker and crazy and then proceed to cite verses in effort 
to take a stance in an argument, it is important to know for sure what the Bible 
teaches on the subject. i should have had a better tone myself, however, i do 
not generally stand by and watch while someone is being ridiculed (called crazy) 
by a person who is misusing scripture. not trying to be rude, just being honest. 
spanking is not so much the issue as is false teaching and misinterpreting God's 

 Asshat, I accept your apology.

Maybe someday you can talk to the Lord about how His Word was 
written and you didnt like it.

Yours Truly, now then... i never said God didn't punish children. i only said 
the verses YOU posted were not about punishment. the word discipline does not 
mean punish. punish can be a part of discipline but not the whole of discipline. 
i also did not deny spanking can be Biblical. however, it IS a fact that many 
scriptures get twisted in the name of child rearing. parenting is a subject that 
brings out the claws.

"how to rear children", the chapter on discipline, starting on page 91. let me 
insert that i assume his intentions were good, but i do not believe there is any 
verse in the Bible that forbids the correcting of scripture manipulation 
regardless of who it is by. calling out a error is not "saying bad things" about 

the person. i more than appreciate the same for myself if i misrepresent God. i 
think the majority of his book, while somewhat shallow and outdated does offer 
good general parenting advice..a good bit of it is also terrible heresy and 
false teaching. (ex: read the chapter on how to prevent your child from becoming 
gay) i haven't read the Schaap's books so i can't comment on them. the pearls 
and the ezzos are down right vomitous and ungodly to the extreme. in comparison 
to theirs, Hyle's books are quite nice. lastly i would NEVER assume someone is 
intentionally misinterpreting the scripture, however, we are COMANDED to 
understand the scriptures esp if we are teaching others. we are also called 
"equals" in God's family and are to admonish each other. i personally feel it is 
our responsibility to speak out and expose false teaching for the sake of those 
who are deceived by it. and quite frankly, i love God and i love His word, when 
someone slanders God's Word or misuses it, i will not stand idly by twiddling my 
thumbs. i will defend God and His truths regardless of who disagrees. 

ok for starters, the first page of the chapter is specifically focused on the 
product of not spanking. he uses judgmental language and name calling towards 
anyone who does not agree with his view (spanking). it is quite clear if you 
read over his whole book that he is misunderstanding the word discipline to be 
synonymous with spanking. a common misconception that many of us make. he calls 
those who spank "Bible believers and wise" and those who don't" Unconverted, 
Bible- rejecting, misguided, deceived, swallowed this poison, prophets of 
anarchy, followers of this heresy, foolish, disregarding the Word of God". 

read his paragraph describing the children who were not spanked. those are false 
claims based on nothing more than his opinion. every study ever done actually 
proves just the opposite. my own personal experience proves just the opposite. 
HIS own personal experience proves just the opposite. (His son?...) these are 
scare tactics used to push an agenda. to scare parents into thinking they have 
to follow these guidelines or their children will be heathens bound for hell. it 
could not be any more obvious.

he then goes on to say that babies lie (sin) by quoting a verse waaaaaaaaaaay 
out of context. i cannot even use enough "a's" in there to show how grossly 
misused and out of context that verse is. read the chapter for yourself. you'll 
see where my quotes came from, spanking from infancy, for 10min or more, until 
their will is broken etc etc it goes on and on. i'm sure he truly believes he is 
right and has good intentions, but it is still false teaching. very 
pharisee-ish. taking one verse and adding a list of man made rules to it and 
calling it "Biblical". anyone who has done a true Bible study on these subjects 
can see the huge misinterpretation used by IFB preachers and teachers to push heart goes out to sincere and deceived parents and their often 
abused children. sadly though, as you have proved, many people do not take the 
time to study their Bible but rather get their doctrine from man. that is a 
recipe for deception and disaster. and i'm not a Hyle's hater, i'm a false 
teaching hater. when a person has such a huge influence over others it is vital 
that they be careful what they teach and that it be "above reproach". i don't 
pick apart man made doctrine just for fun. the subject of parenting is a big 
deal though. i see too many people following bad advice because it is presented 
from a pastor as Biblical. there is a host of other unbiblical and very ANTI 
biblical advice in his book, but i will stop at this subject. 

ps, the Bible calls a fool someone who does not gain understanding and knowledge 
from the scripture. i am seeking only to know what the Bible teaches. if every 
baptist preacher on the earth disagrees, so be it. i stand on the Word and the 
Word alone. the Bible speaks for itself. "let the word of God be true and every 
man a liar.".

and maybe someday you can talk to the Lord and eexplain why you 
didn't study His word.

 Asshat, Oh I dont have to wait to talk to Him I do it on a daily basis 
sweetie! Wink wink

And lets just make this over, I mean really, YOu dont know what 
your talking about and Im afraid you wont be able to sleep in good consicence if 
you dont stop somewhere.

Yours Truly, quite the contraire. the more you talk, the more confident i am 
in the scriptures. you have basically done nothing but deny your 
misrepresentation of the scriptures, ignore your rude remarks, revert the 
conversation away from your own errors, and... well there is no better word for 
it than willful ignorance... this was actually quite fun. the more scriptures 
you throw out, the more i get to look them up and learn truth. so thank you for 
helping me grow :)

 Asshat, There is really nothing I can say to make this better. I mean "AS 
a dog returneth to his vomit, so a fool returneth to his folly" Prov 26:11 your 
just going to keep going back. I mean i aint gonna convinve you and we really 
arent helping each other. You are thoroughly convinced you know more BIBLE than 
Pastors (Bro Hyles) even though they spent a lifetime studying God's Word. I 
mean that alone is enough said...

Oh but I did wanna tell you to look up ROD in the strongs concordance, it says " 
a stick for punishing, fighting, writing, ruling, walking it is an authority in 
the hands of the ruler..." theres a ton more I aint gonna write tonight, but 
since your enjoying learning more I thought that was interesting. That would 
kinda shoot your whole theory in the head.

Yours Truly, my theory? my theory is that spanking is Biblical but not to the extreme most 
often taken. and not in context with every verse used to support it. and yes i 
do love to study. the Bible defines it's own words. rod has quite a few 
meanings. more than just the ones you mentioned. it's about context. the even 
bigger misconception of "rod", is the misconception of "discipline".

and i doubt i know more scripture than Hyles. he had many more years in it than 
i have. that does not make him infallible. any person who is at a place where 
they agree 100% with what a preacher says, any preacher, is putting their faith 
in man and not God. no human is perfect regardless of how old they are or how 
many people that have preached to. ..."enough said" in your response seems to 
say you are content to let another human being do your studying for you. the 
Bible actually talks quite a bit about getting our doctrine from God rather than 
man and proving all things.

btw i could care less if you call me a fool or a dog, but for your own sake, i 
would be careful about using the Bible to name call with. that is not what God 
gives us the scriptures for and you will have to answer to Him for that one day. 
just honest concern.

And she goes on to apologize but immediately deletes it so that bit is lost. The End.


  1. Thanks for posting all of that... it made for interesting reading. I'm the "way off my rocker chica" who wrote the discipline article. :)

  2. reeeally lol ;p well i loved your article btw.

  3. Thanks.. it's something I blog about a lot if you're interested in reading more. You can check out my FB page if you'd like :)